Rob Artigo: Ray, as you know, a couple of times each month we do a video podcast. So this is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast on video. You can watch it by going to toughthingsfirst.com and you can find this podcast by looking at the podcast and then right where the podcast is led into is a little thing that says watch now and you can do that. So today we’re talking about something that sounds basic, but is actually one of the toughest things first for many leaders. It’s called civility, specifically how civility strengthens human relationships, drives better business results, and why it all depends on one skill, awareness of other people’s perspectives where they’re coming from. Ray, why do you think civility feels harder today than it ever has?
Ray Zinn: Well, I’m not sure it’s any different. Harder we’ll talk about, but I don’t think it’s any different than we’ve had. Remember back in the revolutionary time, I’ve forgotten now, but there was two political leaders that actually had a gunfight, a duel. And so this animosity, this antagonism has always existed in politics. That’s why we refer to it as dirty politics. And I’ve never, of course, in my lifetime, I’ve never seen it worse. I’ve seen it as bad, but not any worse than it is now. So it’s to the point where they refuse to even acknowledge each other. Even celebrating something like the 4th of July, they weren’t even willing to acknowledge their relationship on a great anniversary of the 250th, the birth of this nation. So I think it’s a power struggle. I think anytime their power feels threatened, then they feel they need to lash out.
It’s almost like a war. A war is a battle between two opposing parties. And so instead of looking at the relationship and trying to build relationships between differing opinions, they choose to go to battle like we currently have in Iran. They want to bomb each other and destroy the opposition physically, not just psychologically, but physically. The animosity is just over the top.
Rob Artigo: Well, let’s talk a little bit about perspectives. Perspective awareness isn’t about agreeing with the other person or excusing bad behavior. So I mean, kind of going in with what you were talking about with the Iran situation. But I mean, can we be curious here, over-reactionary and get a different perspective? I think when it comes to. We’re not an international affairs show here. We’re not a political show here.
Ray Zinn: No.
Rob Artigo: But at the same time, just using it as an example, we’ve seen the behavior of one side pretty clearly over years, if not decades. And it’s hard to take a step back for a second and say, maybe there’s something different going on here. But still perspective-wise and being civil. And I think another example you brought up recently was just interpersonal relationships. If you’re having a discussion with somebody and you’re talking bad about them, you’re not really helping with the civility situation, just virtue of what you’re saying.
Ray Zinn: Exactly. So the thing that concerns me the most is that we’re not willing to listen. You can’t learn if you’re talking. And so we need to spend less time talking and more time listening to each other. Not just listening to the words, but listening to the reaction, listening to other commentary that they’re presenting. And we’re not talking about Republicans, Democrats, and Independents, we’re talking about people. These are human beings. They have their feelings, they have their differences. And you and I are good friends, but we have our differences. And we don’t have to look at differences as being bad. And I think that’s what’s happening is we’re looking at differences as being evil or terrible or bad. And we have to step back a pace and say, “What is it about this particular subject that is differing with my view on that subject?” And then listen, not just babble on, but that’s an interesting word, babble on, but to be concerned enough to show sincere concern why there’s that difference between the two of us or the groups as you would.
Rob Artigo: Let’s talk about business. In the business world and in the business environment, why is civility a competitive advantage, not just a nice to have trait?
Ray Zinn: Well, because if you respect your opponent, then they’re going to be less antagonistic. And even in a football game or a sports match, the less trash talking, the less badmouthing that we do, the more likely it is we’ll enjoy the competition. I remember playing ping pong with my wife when I was younger, and I used to give her a hard time about the missing shots and stuff that she took. And she says, “I’m not enjoying this at all. So if you’re going to do this, then we’re not going to play ping pong together.” And I learned a lesson about that very early on in our marriage that you don’t want to make competitive relationships hard on each other. You want to make it enjoyable. So when I was running Micrel, I actually enjoyed my competition. I didn’t badmouth them. I really respected them. And it’s called healthy competition.
Healthy, you’ve heard that term. And so healthy competition is one where there’s a relationship where a person is competing against another person, but it’s done in a good way. It’s done in a way to promote civility, to promote civility. Do you see the difference?
Rob Artigo: Yes. And you mentioned the word opponent early on. And when you are referring to an opponent, particularly in a business environment, you’re talking about someone you see as a friendly adversary, somebody who is… You’re competing on a level of business, but not on a level of like you want to wreck somebody or destroy somebody. It’s a figure of speech. You don’t see them as the enemy. You see them as a foe in the sense that we do when we play football or we run track, we line up on the starting line to sprint. We’re next to people that we’re competing against. They are the foe, but they’re not necessarily an enemy.
Ray Zinn: That’s right. 100%. Yeah. When we view anyone as an enemy, that takes on a whole different view and posture. We look at them as an opponent with an opposing view, whether it be pricing, whether it be technology, what to call a friendly competition. And we ought to have, referring back now to this civility thing, we ought to have a friendly disagreement where we choose to agree to disagree. And we’re not going to convince everybody of what we believe is correct or right in our mind. We just need to make sure that we understand their position because it has to start there to understand why they believe the way they do and then not make it a unfriendly bashing, saying nasty things about each other. And so I refer to it as friendly disagreement. That’s what civility is, friendly disagreement.
Rob Artigo: And let’s wrap it up with one last thought on that. And that’s that you can tell when somebody views another person as an enemy, but when they can celebrate or even vocalize a negative thing about that other person when you’re… I’ll put it another way, kicking a person when they’re down. If you’re kicking them when they’re down, then you’re not doing anything that’s going to help you in a matter of civility going forward because you’re going to be viewed as somebody who just wants to hit when the person is weak.
Ray Zinn: The primary solution to civility is humility. So humility goes along with civility. And humility is the willingness to listen to another person’s opinion. That’s what humility is or viewpoint. Whether it be a marriage, whether it be a child-parent relationship, a business, differences within the organizations. We’re going to have differences. Differences are a matter of fact. That’s just nature. We’re just going to be different. But not berating and not hammering these differences is the key to civility. So having humility goes along with being civil. So we call it the civil humility.
Rob Artigo: Thanks, Ray. Great wisdom there and we appreciate it. And to our listeners, this week, I guess your challenge is to pick one interaction you have with someone, whether it’s personal or professional, where you’d normally react quickly. Maybe you could take a second, sit back for a moment and seek the other person’s perspective and respond with civility. Even if it’s a negative thing coming at you, you don’t have to respond with being negative. Note the difference it makes in your life. Join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray on X, Facebook and LinkedIn. And of course pick up Ray’s books. They’re great. The Tough Things First. The Essential Leader, which is a fantastic business leadership book just as a great tale to Tough Things First and the Zen of Zen series. And the one, two, and three, of course, and also Zen of Zen Daily, which is out now.
Thanks again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
