Rob Artigo: Ray, this is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast. We were also on video, so the listeners, if they want to watch, can watch by clicking the link at toughthingsfirst.com. Just navigate to this podcast and you’re all set. Today we’re talking about something that hits close to home for just about anyone, whether you’re running a business or just running a home. Recently, the national debt officially crossed the $40 trillion mark. This milestone didn’t happen under one party. Spending decisions from both sides of the aisle over multiple administrations got us here. It raises some basic questions about fiscal discipline. In private enterprise, we treat the balance sheet as sacred. You say, Ray, cash is king and you don’t spend what you don’t have without a clear path to pay it back. So Ray, do you see leaders in Washington applying the same standard to the public balance sheet?

Ray Zinn: No, obviously not. This is really sad, because there’s a whole bunch of things that have contributed to this debt issue, but I would say that at least 80% of that is political. They’re trying to appease their base and as such, they just want to do things which are, in a business sense, irrational. I mean, the debt has doubled in 10 years and that’s atrocious. I mean, it started out, well, I hate to blame everything on COVID, but COVID had a lot to do with it, as they tried to stabilize the economy as a result of that COVID pandemic that we had. And probably one of the worst things that’s ever happened economically to this country was this COVID pandemic, which now appears to be concrete that it originated in China in a lab, and not naturally and as you say, in nature. China didn’t do us any favors and we didn’t do ourselves any favors in the way we reacted to it.

Rob Artigo: Ray, when I was a reporter covering Sacramento, talking to a politician in California, and in the course of that conversation, one of his answers were, “Hey, you don’t get elected for what you’re going to cut. You get elected for what service you’re going to provide, how much money you’re going to spend.” And that’s unfortunately the way they operate. So one of the strongest arguments against running up this kind of debt is intergenerational responsibility. We’re loading future taxpayers, people who haven’t even been born yet, with obligations they never voted for and had nothing to do with. From a moral and ethical standpoint, how do you view that kind of stewardship?

Ray Zinn: Well, again, I’m not a real happy politician type. The only political office I’ve ever held was a member of the school board back in 1984, but they call it dirty politics for a reason. And they lose sight of the fact that they’re not just impacting the present, they’re impacting the future even more so. And the Tea Party ran on, on reducing the national debt. That was the big thing. I remember my partner, Warren Mueller, that was his big thing. He hated the effect that we were dumping so much money into the economy and running up the debt to support the economy. The Democrat socialist-

Rob Artigo: Oh, yeah, that’s right. Democrat Socialists of America. Yeah.

Ray Zinn: … Right. That base is really the young people and all they do is complain. They think that AI is going to destroy their work opportunities. They think that not being able to buy a home and all they’re doing is complaining. So if you look at that DSA, that’s a complaint group. I remember when I served on the school board, the people that attended were primarily the teachers that attended our meetings and all they did was complain. They never have enough. We’re never doing enough for them. And that was what discouraged me for even serving on the school board was just the fact that the people complain and they think that’s their thing, is to complain. That’s how they get notoriety, as you would. So now, just because they make these claims that they’re going to help this, or help that, or support this group, or that group, it doesn’t mean they really will, because they’re constrained by certain other economic issues that they’re faced with, that prevent them from carrying on their policies that they’re ascribing to.

So again, politicians have been known as dirty politics for as long as I’ve lived, and for a reason. It’s just an artifact of the political life is that we’re not necessarily looking forward very far. We look forward to the midterm or the next election. And if you just listen to the news, the airways are filled with all these political issues in fighting and just fighting one group versus another. Iran, the way they took care of the political issues, they just killed a bunch of people, but we don’t do that. That’s not kind of who we are. And so, if you want to live in that kind of society that free speech just means you get yourself killed, then that’s going to be the way it is here in this country.

Rob Artigo: Is there a difference between borrowing for a true national emergency, so thinking of government, borrowing for a true national emergency versus borrowing as a routine way of doing business? I think that might be kind of a dumb question in the course of what we’ve already talked about, but what do you think about borrowing for a national emergency?

Ray Zinn: Well, national emergencies are of course important. I don’t see us borrowing so much for that as we do for other things in support of healthcare or some other project. For example, California and that train, that bullet train from LA to Sacramento, they borrowed heavily on that and that’s $250 billion. And it’s gone nowhere. They haven’t even laid any track at all. A lot of it is just spending for political reasons. For national emergencies, fires, restoring a bridge, certain things are important and need to be done, but they’re not the ones that get the headlines. It’s all these nonsensical ones, like building that train from LA to Sacramento, spending all that money and getting nowhere.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. It’s the train to nowhere. The name of it is the train to nowhere, really.

Ray Zinn: Exactly. Like the Bridge to Nowhere, like in Alaska, that bridge to nowhere. So the shame of it is that we borrow for the wrong reasons and that’s what has increased our debt. We have to cut back on these, what I call worthless expenditures, and focus more on what we’re really having the expenditures for, which is to improve our way of life.

Rob Artigo: Well, expanding on that, actually you touched on this last question, so I’ll ask the question again, and if there’s anything you want to add, I’ll give you a last word on that. You’ve always emphasized long-term payoff thinking over short-term fixes. So looking at this $40 trillion number, what would a disciplined long-term approach to the national balance sheet actually look like if the same principles that keep a private company solvent were applied to public policy?

Ray Zinn: Well, DOJ tried to do that. They’re trying to cut the expenditures on ridiculous worthless things, and that’s the key. The key is we got to cut away the fat and get down to being more lean. And of course, when you think about the DOJ and the cutbacks, that affected certain people’s lives, because they had jobs that were ridiculous and we were paying them to do these ridiculous jobs. So it’s something like AI. AI is getting rid of a lot of jobs that are redundant, that are not as effective as AI could make them, and people are going to have to pivot. They’re going to have to find ways to earn a living, which are more productive. And so, if you have a job that is repetitive, that is not really helping move you forward or the country forward, you’re going to have to pivot. You got to find another way of providing a living.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, our listeners can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Those questions and comments for you, Ray, are always welcome. Listeners can follow Ray on X, Facebook, and LinkedIn, and of course pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First: The Essential Leader and the Zen of Zinn, series one, two, and three, now including Ray’s new book, Zen of Zinn Daily. Until next time, do the tough things first, right, Ray?

Ray Zinn: Absolutely. That’s the way we succeed.