Rob Artigo: Ray, today’s subject is mentors, one of your favorite topics. You’ve been a mentor to many over the years. Your line is simple. They are crucial. That is, mentors are crucial for running a startup, find one early. You’ve also said every startup CEO needs one. Why early before the company is even really coming to fruition instead of waiting until you’re already in trouble?

Ray Zinn: Well, if you don’t have somebody to support you, somebody that you recognize as a good role model, then you’re likely to develop the wrong kind of habits. So you want good habits. And so follow companies, follow people that you admire, and they will help you overcome the downfalls, pitfalls that you’re going to run into and you’re running a company. Having them before you start is important because then you’ll develop the right habits, the right culture for your organization, your company.

Rob Artigo: You describe a mentor as a guide on the trail with you, a guy that goes along with you and helps you along the path, not someone yelling from the summit. That’s different from a board member like a VC or friend who just sort of cheers from the sidelines. What should a founder actually be looking for and what gets mistaken for mentoring?

Ray Zinn: A mentor is a helper. Okay, that’s the difference. Not just somebody who sits on a sideline cheering you on. You need somebody that will help you. They’re a helper. They’re like a shepherd. They’re a leader. They’re a guider. They’re not just yelling from the summit. So you want people who are not yelling at you, you want people who are helping you. And unfortunately, many boards, all they do is yell. They don’t help. In fact, I found that to be true when I ran Micrel that many of my board members were just yellers. They weren’t helpers. The mentor you have, it should be a helper, somebody who leads you, guides you, walks besides you, not somebody who just yells at the summit.

Rob Artigo: Everyone has heard of HP as in Hewlett-Packard, but a lot of people don’t know that these guys, since it’s been a few years since these guys have been around and been the product of headlines, their products around, the product is still, Prolific is still out there. Bill Hewlett and David Packard were Stanford engineering classmates and they had a professor who was a central figure in their success as a mentor and he was there before. He was there for their very first product, which I can’t recall what it is at the moment, but it was something way back in the mid-20th century somewhere where they came up with this thing and it became an actual workable product. What do you think the difference was in the longevity of HP, the mentor really made a difference?

Ray Zinn: Well, as you point out, their professor was really a good mentor. He really helped them develop that product line that they’re so famous for, the instrumentation that they developed for the early products. And of course, Bill Hewlett and David Packard got along very well. They were complimentary to each other, which we’ve covered in other podcasts. They were good partners. So they had good mentors though, very good mentors. Getting off on the wrong foot is what a mentor will help you move back on the right foot. So getting off on the wrong foot is not having a good mentor or a good partner as you would. So your mentor could be your partner, but they’re helpers. They’re not just yelling from the summit.

Rob Artigo: Do you think that having a mentor early was a major player in why there became known to be this thing called The HP Way?

Ray Zinn: The concept of HP when David Packard and Bill Hewlett started the company was the way they wanted to treat people. So The HP Way was they were a team. They weren’t just hagglers as you would. They’re people like Harry Singleton and others that started companies that all they did was hassle and haggle their people. And that’s not The HP Way. The HP Way was, Hewlett-Packard Way was to get people to work as a team, to really enjoy being together, working together. And that’s what I incorporated at Micrel when I started. It was going to be built around a team concept.

Rob Artigo: One of the ideas here is that you said, “Decide who you most admire and become that person on purpose.” So how does admiration turn into a plan instead of just being like a poster on a wall?

Ray Zinn: A poster on a wall is something you just look at. I mean, that doesn’t speak, it doesn’t develop. All it does is you may get inspired by a picture and it may even help you to some degree. But when you have somebody who’s taking you by the hand and leading you and guiding you and walking beside you is the kind of mentor that you want. So that’s the concept of having the proper mentors of somebody you look up to. And it might be a picture on a wall, but certainly it’s pretty stoic just staring at a picture because it may help you in thinking about what you need to do, but having that guiding hand of fellowship and strengthening you as you move forward with your company is crucial. And that’s why having a mentor early is crucial.

Rob Artigo: You said a good mentor will call you out when you’re drinking your own Kool-Aid. How does a founder tell the difference between a mentor who is hard on them because they care and someone who is just trying to run the company from the cheap seats?

Ray Zinn: Because it’s the way in which they do it, the kind of guidance that they’re giving you. If they’re just yelling at you from the summit, that’s not guidance. If they’re telling you to make sure when you put in that next peton, if you’re climbing a mountain as you would, that you anchor in a certain way. And then if they see you not doing it in a certain way, they call you out. I can remember when I was learning to fly, my teacher, my instructor, he would even slap me on the hand if he saw me doing something that I shouldn’t do and it would kind of shake me up like that. But it called to my attention I was doing something wrong. It was a good experience in the sense even though he slapped my hand when I tried to operate the controls in a certain way, that really helped me become a better pilot.

I can remember as I was manipulating the controls, sometimes I would just throw the throttle all the way forward and the plane would lurch. And he said, “Well, wait a minute. You just caused Ms. Penelope to spell her tea.” And I said, “Oh, but she’s not with us.” He says, “But if you develop the wrong habits, you’re going to cause her to spell her tea. And you got to make sure that even though there’s nobody right now in the back flying with you, that you got to develop the right kind of habits.” And so that’s what he would do is he would slap my hand if I ran the throttle too far forward quickly. So he said, “You want to ease the throttle on, not slam it to the wall. You may like the feeling of the thrust and the power of the plane, but you’re also causing your passengers to be upset.”

I can remember when I bought my Tesla that certain people would like to throttle everything really hard to the floor, slam your head against the back of the seat. And they thought that was really funny and cute, but it’s uncomfortable for your passengers. So you want to develop the right kind of habits and your mentor, if he has to slap your hand, knock you in the head with a 2X4, it’s to get your attention.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. The bottom line is, don’t wait until the mountain is on fire to look for a guide. I think that’s the principle we’re leaving here.

Ray Zinn: Exactly.

Rob Artigo: Listening can-

Ray Zinn: Or look for a fire hose.

Rob Artigo: Look for a fire hose. You’re going to have to make a decision one way or another.

Ray Zinn: Exactly.

Rob Artigo: Find a mentor and listen to that person. Take that person’s advice. Listeners can continue this at toughthingsfirst.com. So questions and comments are welcome for ring. We have the podcast archives there, ZinnStarter and the book Tough Things First and the Zen of Zinn series, including the Zen of Zinn Daily and The Essential Leader. Follow Ray on X, Facebook, and LinkedIn. Ray, thanks as always. Until next time, do the tough things first, right?

Ray Zinn: Absolutely. That’s the key. Do the tough things first.