Explore how the Essential Leader hands off responsibility effectively and avoids the “I’ll just do it myself” trap. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores why it is essential to maintain accountability and quality, without obsessing and micromanaging.

Rob Artigo: Many leaders say that they delegate, but secretly they’re thinking it’ll be faster if I just do it myself. That trap can kill growth. It can burn out leaders. It also keeps the teams from developing the way that they normally would in bonding, I think. So today, Ray, let’s explore how the essential leader hands off the responsibility effectively and maintains accountability and equality. Especially in the fast-moving tech environments that we all work in. And it also avoids the micromanagement trap, the negative kind. In your book, The Essential Leader, you talk about delegation as one of the essential skills. Why is it so hard for many leaders to let go without losing control?

Ray Zinn: Well, because they don’t trust whoever they’ve assigned the task to and so the person you assign the task to assumes that you don’t trust them.

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Hoping for short memories may not be the best way to regain trust once it is shaken. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses the unfortunate knack some leaders have for rosy outlooks on everything without realizing they may lose support in the long run. (Watch Now…)

Rob Artigo: President Trump has recently tried to be encouraging, but what appears to be too much exaggeration, and that’s kind of his leadership. So that’s been his personality for a long time. And it’s kind of, I don’t know, people are responding, it seems, with losing trust in him because he says, “Oh yeah, it’s going to be the greatest thing ever,” or, “This is going to end right now.” And it’s not really panning out. Is this something that you’ve been thinking about a lot lately as you watch these ups and downs in the market, but also what’s going on on the world stage?

Ray Zinn: Yes. When we talk about giving encouraging outlooks, we got to be careful because if your outlook is not able to come to pass, in other words, if you’re not having a predictable outlook, then people start not believing what you’re saying. And since this podcast is for many listeners, I remember when we would, at Micrel, when we have our conference calls once a quarter, we would give an outlook, and that outlook was difficult to do because you’re looking into the future and you can’t predict the future really well. So on one hand, you don’t want to be discouraging or give a bad outlook because the stock is going to take a hit. And by the same token, if you give a really optimistic outlook and it doesn’t pan out, then they’re not going to trust you. And so they’re not going to give you a credit for your wonderful outlook. And so because sometimes your outlook is good, sometimes they’re not so good. I should say we did this once a month, not once a quarter.

But anyway, the outlook that President Trump has been giving on Iran has been more optimistic than actual. Even though he’s accomplished a lot, the outcome looks favorable. The timing of it is not panning out like it should. So that’s just an example. I mean, this podcast is really not about President Trump. It’s more about how do we, as leaders, how do we encourage or keep our employees encouraged, but not giving them some exaggerated outlook that we can’t bring to pass. While we think that people have short memories, certain things that they remember very well, and you have to be careful that you don’t exaggerate the outlook. Otherwise, if it doesn’t happen, your employees are going to lose trust in your judgment.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. Like you said, it’s not about politics. It’s about the timeless principles of effective leadership that people that listen to this podcast know very well. When a leader uses exaggeration to encourage people, even if there are good intentions behind it, the long-term to trust, I mean, it can be far beyond what you imagine. Like you said, people have short memories. In politics, they always say this. People have short memories and they go, by the next election, they will have forgotten this. But that’s not necessarily true when it comes to the way that they feel. If they lose trust in you, it’s really hard to get that back. I know we’ve talked about that on this podcast.

Ray Zinn: Yes. It’s interesting that … We hope people have short memories, but if the outcome is not good, that sticks in their mind. And so what comes around, goes around, you’re going to pay the penalty for it. So the future is very hard to predict. While we want to be optimistic, while we want to be encouraging and not deliver questionable news, by the same token, we want to be realistic. And that’s the key. The key is be realistic in your projections so that you don’t over-promise.

Rob Artigo: You often emphasize honesty and integrity as you call it a non-negotiable in those areas. It has been part of the culture at Micrel. It’s how you have operated as a CEO for so long. How do those ideas play into this as honesty and integrity be non-negotiable.?

Ray Zinn: Well, that’s part of it. Giving a realistic outlook is being honest. Let’s take an example. Let’s say that everything looks great, the quarter looks wonderful, the quarter going forward, I should say, is looking wonderful. And you really want to be very optimistic because you’ve got good news, the backlog is great, but then something happens. Somebody drops a bomb somewhere, some customer declares bankruptcy, and now you’ve given this outlook, even though at the time it looked realistic, but now you’ve got this dilemma that you’re facing, and you get blamed for that. I mean, honestly, the buck stops here, you’re going to get blamed. Even though it was something you didn’t know at the time, people don’t know you didn’t know that. And so they assume you knew it, even though maybe you didn’t, and you’re going to get penalized for it.

So we talk about caveats. They say God-willing or weather it doesn’t change or we don’t have this problem happen, we don’t lose a customer or important employee to leave the company. We have this one with Microsoft … I mean, with Apple where Tim Cook is now leaving and they got a new leader because that’s new and that’s going to be a concern for those next few quarters is how well the new CEO’s going to handle the company. So people don’t like to deal with unknowns. They hate unknowns. But unknowns are with us.

So what we want to do is have an honest reputation so that if when bad news happens, when we have a dotcom implosion, that people will recognize and understand that that’s an incident that happened. And now as long as you’re viewed with honesty and integrity, there is some forgiveness if the outcome is not as you projected it. Because as Murphy’s law is, that which can happen will happen, as you would. Bad things are going to happen. You’re not always going to have wonderful revenue projections and good news for your customers or your investors. You will have downturns and you will have difficulties. And the way we migrated through those eight downturns that we faced at Micrel was we were honest and we had a reputation of having integrity and our investors and customers stuck with us through thick and thin.

Rob Artigo: I guess the thing is to pause before commenting on something. And I think that’s what CEOs trying to protect their stocks also have to realize that there are analysts out there that are going to comment on those. It’ll sort of balance out what you say. But the idea being there’s got to be a better way to encourage without risking a loss of trust. You got to maintain that trust to stay there.

Ray Zinn: That’s why I said don’t exaggerate. Look at a more neutral position as opposed to exaggerating and then having to deal with that exaggeration. So the trees don’t go all the way to the sky. I mean, at some point you’re going to have a call to Jesus time where you’re going to have to own up to the projections or the outlook that you projected. Don’t underestimate or don’t mislead by not being truthful because then they’ll just say, well, you’re sandbagging. So don’t sandbag and don’t exaggerate. Just be known as an honest person with high integrity. And regardless of what happens, your customers and employees will stay with you.

Rob Artigo: I know that one thing I think about sometimes is Scotty from Star Trek. He said that he would say, tell the captain on the Enterprise, “Captain, I need six hours,” when he actually only needed four because that way when he came in under the six hours, he would sound like he did some kind of miracle and looked really good. So maybe downplaying it a little bit is a good way to show that you’ve had this great success because, hey, it was a tough fight. That’s that. That’s the Star Trek reference for the podcast for today.

So I hope the listeners will rate this podcast on their favorite platform. If you’re facing tough leadership challenges in your own organization, visit toughthingsfirst.com for more information and wisdom from Ray Zinn, including his books and resources. If this episode resonated with you, subscribe, leave a review and share it with a leader in your life or take it in for your own leadership challenges. Until next time, do the tough things first, starting with telling the truth. Right, Ray?

Ray Zinn: Exactly. Go truth.

Is the question, “which end is up?” The nagging question is where will this economy end with all that is going on. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn puts his well earned economist hat on and cuts through the chaos. – OR – (Watch Now!)

Rob Artigo: Ray, this is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast. It is on video and I’d like to invite our listeners to toughthingsfirst.com. There is a whole pull-down menu for the podcasts, and we have all the history of our podcasts there, and you can check out any podcast you want. But if you find this one and you look at the little Watch Now button, you can click on that and it’ll take you to Ray’s YouTube channel. And Ray, people will go there and watch, and they usually turn out really, really good. So watch now if you want or just keep on listening.

Ray Zinn: Please share and subscribe to this. We would love your support.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So Ray, you guided Micrel through 37 years, profitable, eight major semiconductor downturns along that time, that’s what I understand, without ever really relying on venture capital. So today we turn the attention to the present economy, which is really wild to navigate.

At the time of this recording, which is late March, just about April 1st almost, it looks like growth is holding at about mid 2% range, and the labor market cooled off a little bit. Unemployment about 4.4%. Inflation remained somewhat sticky above the Fed’s target, and there’s ongoing debate around interest rates, policy shifts.

And of course, Iran is looming large because of the oil situation. It’s not a crisis, but it’s not smooth sailing either, agreed?

Ray Zinn: Yes. Well, because there’s a lot of components to having a good economy. I’m asked often, because I am an economist educationally and also from work, they say, “Well, how is the economy?” And so if you read the news or if you hear the polling and so forth, they say, “Oh, the economy is the number one problem.” And so it’s a focus. When you focus on something, you tend to really put a lot of emphasis on it. That’s why we call it a focus.

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Flashy leadership fails long-term, even when it seems to be sailing along carefree much of the time. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explains why the remedy to loud overconfidence is quiet competence.

Rob Artigo: Ray, I think we got a great topic on this one. We see a lot of high profile leaders today who thrive on, well, I guess what you describe as hype, bold promises and personal branding, the whole thing where you put your face on a T-shirt and everything’s suddenly, you’re a hot commodity. Yet many of those approaches, they just burn out or crash when the times get tough. I’m sure you’ve seen that over your 37 years at the helm of Micrel. You avoided the spotlight, you focused on steady execution. So, what’s the fundamental difference and why does flashy leadership so often fail long-term?

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Yes, you can own the Ugly Truth by keeping your mouth closed, or own it by speaking up! In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says, owning the ugly truth by speaking up is the fastest way to resolve serious problems. Even when it feels a little scary.

Rob Artigo: Ray, your slogan is … I’m not telling you something you don’t already know. Your slogan is, “Do the tough things first.” Let’s talk about owning the ugly truth first. Do you feel like the fastest way to solve a serious problem is to be the first person in the room to clearly name the brutal reality, not sugarcoating or blame shifting or anything like that?

Ray Zinn: Well, close to doing the tough things first. Of course, if you own the tough things, if you accept the tough things, if you accept the ugly truth, then you’re more likely to deal with it. None of us like going to the dentist or the doctor because we don’t want that ugly truth. The ugly truth, of course, is we have to go to the doctor or the dentist if we want to solve a particular problem that we have. Owning up or accepting the truth rather than, as they say, shoving it under the rug, then we’re more likely to solve it, get rid of it, deal with it. It’s all part of overcoming procrastination. That’s the thing that we won’t accept the ugly truth. We tend to shove it under the rug or, as they say, kick the can down the road. Have you heard that before, Rob?

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This time of year, many people around the world celebrate renewal, rebirth, and transformation. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn digs into his book Zen of Zinn Daily to say, “you can do better. Here’s how.”

Rob Artigo: Ray, as we record this, it’s March 31st, 2026. Your new book, Zen of Zinn Daily, compiles the best of your entries in Zen of Zinn One, Two, and Three. It’s a great series. The entries are daily entries, 366 days, because you include the Leap Year day as well. So for those people who are born on Leap Year day, you can celebrate your birthday and read the book at the same time.

You also then expand on your thoughts from those earlier versions of the book. You have really great little comments about that. Let me read this from page 45 of Zen of Zinn Daily for March 31st. It says, “Can you do better? Can you be better? This is a choice. It is your decision and yours alone. Do not be a victim. Be an advocate for good. Take control of your life.”

So here’s your response to that original quote. “This time of year, many people around the world celebrate renewal, rebirth, and transformation. Sometimes we renew completely to refresh our minds and bodies. Other times, we give or accept a new life, and yet other times we transform those areas of our lives that stand in the way of growth and potential.”

So Ray, the prompt declares that becoming better is a daily choice and rejects victimhood. How does this mindset separate effective leaders from those who stall in tough times?

Ray Zinn: Well, let me talk about the saying that I like to quote. “Yesterday is history. Tomorrow’s a mystery. Today’s the present. That’s why they call it a gift.”

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“Who’s on my team?” goes right to the heart of what appears to be a verbal civil war in public discourse. So, how do we build a team back after deep division? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn has the answer. (Watch Now!)

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, this is, as we do a couple of times a month, a special edition of the podcast where we’re on video. So if anyone wants to watch this instead of just listen to it, you can go to toughthingsfirst.com, find this podcast, and then click on Watch Now, and then you’ll be zoomed literally to Ray’s YouTube channel where you’ll be able to watch the video instead. And we look great on video, so check it out if you haven’t already. Today’s question, Ray, cuts to the heart of any organization facing division. Who’s on my team? Right now, I mean, not just in our organizations, but in our country, it feels like we’re in the middle of a verbal civil war. We have heated disagreements, fractured trust, and people questioning loyalties all over the place.

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A comfortable chair and money in the bank can shorten your career. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses why discomfort moves people forward while comfort kills.

Rob Artigo: Ray, most people pursue comfort as a goal. If it’s comfort you’re after each day, you’re liable to just become lazy. Am I wrong?

Ray Zinn: No, you’re 100% right. Comfort defines lazy.

Rob Artigo: Where have you seen comfort creep into work environments? We talk about AI a lot on this podcast, and AI can be useful, but it can also lead to complacency where you use AI to draft emails, for example, and maybe you don’t even know what is in the email because you’re in the fast-paced environment. You sort of just skip over it. Oh yeah, well, it must be good because AI wrote it, but it can lead to a sense of being complacent.

Ray Zinn: Yeah, it is so true. It impersonalizes our relationship. Last night, I asked Alexa, “Where do you live?” And because it’s AI, she says, “I live in the cloud. I don’t have a physical address.” But it sounds like you’re talking to a real person, but you’re not. It impersonalizes a relationship if we rely too heavily on AI.

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Ray Zinn is not just the Longest Serving CEO in Silicon Valley History, he’s a man that does not retire or quit. In this special edition of the Tough Things First Podcast, Ray talks about his new book aimed at inspiring the next generations to do the same. One day at a time. Zen of Zinn Daily is 365 days of inspiration with action and you can start at any age. (Listen here or watch on YouTube)

Ray Zinn: Hey, Rob. Good to be with you.

Rob Artigo: Ray, this, we did it last year and we enjoyed doing it when you did The Essential Leader. Back behind me here, we have the Zen of Zinn Daily Reader. This is the cover of the book. When you’re looking for it, this is it right here. This is the new book, Ray. Congratulations. This is an excellent start to a new year is to get a book out. And this is very exciting. So we have the Zen of Zinn Series I, II, and III, but this, you take some of your favorite quotes from the series, Zen of Zinn, and then you expand on it and do some actionable items, some comments. And it’s basically a daily reader. It’s a 365. You start on Day 1, January 1st, and you can work through the whole book throughout the course of the year. It’s pretty cool, Ray.

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You might not think so, but interviewing a candidate for a job is not easier than being interviewed. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explains the process from both sides.

Rob Artigo: This is a quote from page 46 of Zen of Zinn, your book, page 46, and here it is: “When looking for a job, are you looking for money or opportunity? Most employers will soon find out. If your focus is money, your chances are worse in landing the job. Employers are looking for loyalty and thus focus on your job history. If on average you change jobs every three years or less, this will not portray you as a loyal employee. Employers are looking for dedicated team members who have a track record of loyalty. When hiring, be aware of the same desires within each candidate.”

Do you ask questions about what their goals are and get them to kind of reveal, even if they’re trying to conceal it, but reveal that they’re in it for the money?

Ray Zinn: Yes.

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In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the often maligned idea that, when it comes to leadership, kindness and positive reinforcement are more effective at persuasion and achieving desired results than an iron fist.

Rob Artigo: You have been an example of servant leadership leading with grace, not power. That’s part of your philosophy. In your book, The Essential Leader, you talk about why that’s an important attribute for a good leader, for the essential leader. The question I have for you is have you noticed if modern leaders rely on authority, control, or incentives to drive performance instead of what you would consider a singular fundamental leadership example, leading with grace?

Ray Zinn: I think because of the lack of understanding of servant leadership, most of our leaders, especially in the political environment, lead with power and authority. They can’t seem to lead with love and respect, which I think are the more important, which is grace. Grace is charity, benevolence, virtuous, kindliness. Those are the characteristics of a servant leader, someone who doesn’t lead with power but rather leads with love.

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A thousand dollars to open investment accounts for newborns. The hardest to change to make this a priority may lie with the parents. Is it worth it? Why Ray Zinn says the answer is simple in the Tough Things First podcast. (Watch Now…)

Rob Artigo: Ray, the Trump Accounts, we’ve been hearing a lot about them lately because they’ve just recently been launched. And I think this topic is of value for parents who will have the option of choosing this for their kids when they’re born, but also those adults who have been struggling with understanding the value of saving and investing and really starting at a young age. And this is something that we’ve talked about on the podcast. And this is an interesting development here on the federal side that may give many of these new parents a leg-up in advancing their child in the future.

Just to remind listeners, the Trump Accounts are new tax-advantage investments accounts. They’re for US citizens. They provide $1,000. A Treasury-funded seed money for babies born between 2025 and 2028. They’re designed to build wealth through stock market investments, and parents can contribute to up to $5,000 annually with options for employer and state contributions. So Ray, how did this strike you when you first heard about it?

Ray Zinn: Well, many countries do it already, countries that are already focused on education. The primary source for growth in any country is its youth. And I’ve always been a big proponent of education. We’ve funded, my wife and I, hundreds of scholarships around the United States to different universities. It’s similar to what the Trump Account is doing. Only ours is called the Ray Zinn Family Scholarship Fund. And it is available at least at five different universities. And it’s really helped out students. So I’m a big proponent of education. I wish our country was more of a proponent.

We had that COVID issue that really has injured significantly our youth that were affected by that shutdown. And as you know, many universities are having to do remedial math for students that are starting their freshman year in college because we’ve failed so poorly in funding education.

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Business leaders who foster a culture of gray areas are not great role models. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses the dangerous game of compromising your values.

Ray Zinn: Hello there, Rob.

Rob Artigo: Ray, leaders often face intense pressure to compromise on core values like integrity or honesty. Whether it’s inflating metrics for investors, or overlooking ethical lapses for growth, or bending principles to close a deal, in your experience, what are the most common scenarios in high stakes environments like Silicon Valley where the temptation arises, and why do well-intentioned leaders rationalize these short-term trade-offs?

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You can build resilience in your life and business so that no matter how bad it gets, you are ready. Ray Zinn knows a thing or two about navigating rough seas even when it seems nearly impossible.

Rob Artigo: At Micrel as CEO for so many years, your company was thriving in uncertain times, not just a survivor, it was a thriver. Resilience often starts at the individual level, especially during personal setbacks like health challenges. You lost your eyesight at a very important time in the company’s history, but you managed to get through that and stay as CEO until you finally left the company.

That could feel overwhelming, I’m sure those things… And they can feel permanent like vision loss. Hopefully, things improved over time, but you had that challenge. What practical strategies have you seen or personally used to reframe these hurdles as temporary, like rebuilding your inner strength and maintaining focus amid the uncertainty?

Ray Zinn: Well, that child story about the Little Train That Could is a good example. You just have to realize that life is going to have its ups and downs about half the time.

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Integrity isn’t just an idea of basic ethics. As Ray Zinn tells us, in this Tough Things First podcast, a real commitment to integrity is a competitive advantage that leads to greater profits in business and benefits in life. (Watch Video

Rob Artigo:.. Ray, we have a great topic today. Integrity as the ultimate competitive advantage. So many leaders face pressure, as you know, to take shortcuts for quick wins. They cut corners or make promises, fudging numbers, or prioritizing short-term profits. In your experience, you did 37 years at Micrel. What are the most significant long-term costs beyond just financial penalties that companies may pay if they compromise on integrity, such as employee turnover, customer churn, or reputational damage?

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Taken from a page of Ray’s book Zen of Zinn 3, in this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses how honest assessment is the difference between gambling and investing.

Rob Artigo: Ray, let’s turn to page 89 of Zen of Zinn 3, your book in the series of three books. Page 89, and this is what it said, very short writing, “Gamblers are not investors. To gamble is to take a chance on a random event. Don’t gamble on your future. Have a strategy that eliminates or at least reduces the chance for failure.” Tell us a little bit about that.

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In this Tough Things First podcast with Ray Zinn, Ray looks at what creating a personal culture does for the people around you and what it really means for you.

Ray Zinn: Hello, Rob.

Rob Artigo: You had the idea of talking about culture and suggested that people should define their culture. For starters, you asked the question, who do you most admire?

Ray Zinn: Yep. Well, you have to have a mentor, somebody that you believe and you, as they say, worship. And so that person’s culture is the one you want to emulate. In my case, is Jesus Christ, is my mentor and one that I want to follow. So I look and see what culture did he have, and then I try to emulate that culture in my life. So that’s what I meant by defining our culture. Who do we most admire? And that will actually define our culture.

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Fear of risk, fear of  danger, fear of going it alone. Fear can be healthy, but it can also hold us back. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the most important factor in overcoming fear.

Rob Artigo: Ray, many people are held back by fear. I know this personally, and I’ve had times in my life where I’ve avoided something because I just had a general fear of the possible outcomes. And some people just govern their whole lives based on fear. Is it possible to eliminate fear?

Ray Zinn: Sure, but you have to first recognize that you are fearful. Are you risk averse? Risk averse means that you’re not willing to take any chances. The more chances you’re willing to take, the more likely are to succeed. Now, there’s some righteous fear, meaning that you want to fear God as you would, respect them. You want to be respected. And so, you don’t want to be stupid and jump off out of an airplane without a parachute. I mean, that’s not overcoming fear, that’s just being stupid. Eliminating fear allows you to be more willing to take some chances. If you don’t take a chance, you’re just not going to accomplish your legacy or grow your career. Some people are afraid to go to school. I mean, if you’re wrapped up in fear, there’s a lot of things that you could do you won’t do. “Oh, I can’t do that,” or, “Oh, I don’t have that knowledge or that skillset.” As soon as you say what you don’t have and you can’t do, then you’re fearful.

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When you just start out in life, you may think very little about how you will be remembered. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses why that approach may lead to very little legacy at all.

Rob Artigo: One thing you do at this podcast, and your books, and everything that you’re doing is you’re creating a lasting legacy. It’s one of those things that a lot of people don’t really consider until they get along later in life, but you’ve built, over a lifetime, your legacy. So what truly makes a legacy last?

Ray Zinn: Well, your legacy is the one you write over time, and the earlier you begin it, the more long-lasting it will be. For example, if I said, “What’s the legacy of Al Capone?” what would you say?

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Some people believe equality and equity are the same thing. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn dives into what equality really means.

Rob Artigo: … We fairly recently did a podcast on so called equity and inclusion. So, let’s turn our attention to what it actually means to be equal. Are we talking about equal outcomes like wealth, status, and happiness? What are we talking about here?

Ray Zinn: No, we’re talking about we’re all innately creating God’s image and likeness, but that we’re not all at the same status.

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Workplace conflicts are going to happen and the word “yes” can produce remarkable results to help your teams grow. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the toughest workplace conflicts and the “Yes Principle.”

Ray Zinn: Hi, Rob. Good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: Sure. Let’s talk about creative teams and managing conflict because there’ll be differences of opinion. There’ll be different directions people want to go in concepts that they’re developing. There may just be personality conflicts. So in your experience, what kind of conflicts are the most common?

Ray Zinn: Well, there’s a stone wall, in other words, where neither side is willing to back down. The good example of that is currently we have the shutdown in the government, and it’s based over some very strong principles that neither side want to bend on.

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You have your “bandwidths”, your “synergies” and your “lean-ins,” to name a few and what do they all have in common? They are cliche’ and overused. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says you need to cultivate a growth mindset, not a worthless vocabulary.

Ray Zinn: Hello, Rob. Good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: We’ve seen in recent years, Ray, a movement toward workplace structures that have been controversial in the area of like, equity and inclusion. I want to talk a little bit about how real leaders can encourage continuous improvement and innovation in the workplace without getting tripped up by trendy concepts. So Mike Krell, the way you operated, you basically created safe spaces for risk-taking feedback and diverse perspectives that were drivers for both teams and personal development. Isn’t that true?

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The world of information is transforming at light speed, and getting sucked into a misinformation vortex is a constant problem. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says, “Just the Facts, Ma’am.”

Rob Artigo: Ray, looking at page 26 of your first Zen of Zinn book, Zen of Zinn one. It says, you wrote this, “Get it right and don’t be bamboozled by others. Think it through. Does it make sense? We are inundated by the news media and other sources that try to influence our views and opinions. You need to make sure what you are hearing is based on facts and not opinions made to sound like facts.” That sounds like good advice, Ray.

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Will Ai help develop a new generation of leaders or turn human brains off to the idea of decision-making with out it? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the nature of this serious question.

Rob Artigo: Got a good topic here, Ray. Let’s dive into how emerging technologies like AI are reshaping leadership roles like decision-making and team dynamics in modern business. Ray, has AI improved how leadership is defined?

Ray Zinn: That’s difficult to answer because AI is so new. It’s hard to understand exactly how it impacts leadership. Maybe organization work function, AI will have an impact, but leadership is still a personal thing; it’s not an AI thing. AI, again, is relatively new, and there’s a lot of good capability of AI and helping us as leaders. It does a lot of the menial tasks as you would that we might have to do like answering the phone or maybe doing a podcast with AI or whatever, but that personal relationship I don’t believe is going to go away, even though AI can make it pretty personal.

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Work life balance. Is it a recipe for long term success, or a surefire way to fail? In the Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn counters the case made by some enormously successful CEOs. (Watch Now on YouTube)

Ray Zinn: Hello, Rob. Good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, this is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast, because it is a video podcast. If the listeners would like to watch instead of just listen, they can go to Toughthingsfirst.com, find the podcast, locate this podcast, and then of course find where … There’s a little button to click for watching the video. It’ll take you to the YouTube channel where they post the videos all the time, so I hope you enjoy that, if you choose to do that. If you don’t, still, we’re happy to have you here listening. Ray, I found something that I’d like to talk to you about. This is from a Fortune.com article. It says, “There are many workers out there who are perfectly happy clocking in at 9:00 and heading out the door at 5:00,” and Cerebras co-founder and CEO, Andrew Feldman, said, “They can have a great life. However, if you want to launch the next billion-dollar company or innovate a product, you won’t get anywhere at 40 hours a week.”

This is his quote, here. “The notion that somehow you can achieve greatness, you can build something extraordinary, by working 38 hours a week and having a work-life balance, that’s mind-boggling to me,” unquote. That’s Feldman, again, leader of the $8.1 billion AI chip company. He said that recently on a 20VC podcast. He says it’s just not true in any part of his life. Apparently Jeff Bezos agrees with this philosophy. There are other industry titans that believe in this. You’re not one of them, Ray. Why is that?

Ray Zinn: Well, historically, the work day has been eight hours a day, five days a week, 40 hours a week. Yeah, so if you think about what your effective work schedule is, because you have to have time to eat and sleep and do other things other than just be at your desk slaving away at whatever product line or business you have, it’s inefficient. It’s ridiculous. If it requires 80 hours a week to be successful, then you don’t have enough people, so obviously, if you can’t afford to hire enough people so that you don’t have to work 80 hours a week, then I guess you’d have to work 80 hours a week. I mean, you’ve got to do whatever you have to do to be successful. I know people that have a beauty salon and they’re the only one, they’re the top talent for that, to do that particular service, and so he has to put in whatever hours he needs to cover his overhead. He recently had a few people leave, and so he was taking over their customers and he was working 80 hours a week, but it was killing him. In other words, he had no life.

As I mentioned, there’s 24 hours in a day, but you can’t spend 20 of it working, and so if you just do the math on it, 80 hours a week, you’re working 16 hours a day, unless you’re working seven days a week, so it’s not really efficient or not a good lifestyle to work 60 to 80 hours a week. I ran Micrel for 37 years, and I believe the longest work week I ever had was 50 or 60, and that was during the time we were preparing for our IPO and that sort of thing, which required a lot of my personal attention. Having to work more than eight hours a day just doesn’t … If you just divide the day up, you’ve got three eight-hour periods in your day, and it’s very, very difficult to not have some form of life other than your work. If you have to give up sleep, I mean, I don’t know how effective you’re going to be by not sleeping, but I do know that some people try to get by to three to four hours of sleep, and God bless them for that, but they’re not going to be very healthy. Your health is important too, as you try to be effective and efficient as a CEO or as a leader of an organization, so again, I disagree that you have to work 80 hours a week to be successful.

Rob Artigo: Do you think they’re factoring in some things like, you get off work and you go home. If you’re the leader or the CEO or or you’re in the middle of developing something, that you can go home, enjoy dinner, enjoy some time with your family, but at the same time your brain doesn’t necessarily turn it off. Could they be factoring in some of the hours that you put in working where you’re just maybe looking at technical manuals or something like that at home, and taking up your own time to do that, or are they talking straight, in the office, going hardcore and driving, and being either always on the phone or always having a meeting, or always trying to develop something?

Ray Zinn: It’s at work. I mean, obviously you can’t turn your brain off, but your family knows if you’re not focusing on them or on something other than work, they notice that. Just because you’re home, if you’re on the phone or if you’re doing Zoom or whatever with clients or employees, they notice that. We’re talking about now not having your total cognitive hours focused on work or work type activities. I know people who love to work 80 hours a week. I think Donald Trump says he works, I don’t know, he gets three hours of sleep or four hours of sleep a night. I don’t know how healthy that is for him, but I do know that, they claim anyway, he’s running around the clock and just barely gets any sleep time. Even his hours of where he eats and has other things to do other than just work, he’s still working. I mean, even at dinner, I mean, he’s got other people that he’s surrounded with that he’s talking to, and on the phone with different country presidents and so forth, and maybe he can do that for a few years, but to do that around the clock, I don’t think it’s healthy.

Rob Artigo: There’s diminishing returns, because if you are … You were talking about the cognitive impacts of, the positive cognitive impacts of getting rest, letting your mind rest, so you can actually go drive for 80 hours a week and really only get 60% and even less productivity out of it mentally, because you’re not thinking totally straight, than if you worked fewer hours and gave yourself a chance for your mind to recuperate.

Ray Zinn: Yep. Well, that’s part of it too. You can’t exercise 24/7. You have to spell off a little while. I exercise five days a week, I don’t exercise seven days a week, and so you have to give your body a little chance to relax and to recuperate. I’ve heard that there are people that even conduct business while they’re taking care of some personal business, as they say, or even when they’re at the dinner table, but to me, it’s not healthy. I mean, your stomach, you can’t have a decent meal and digest that meal effectively if you are arguing with somebody over the phone. I mean, your system recognizes when you’re upset or when things aren’t going right, and so pounding your fist on the table while you’re eating or yelling and screaming into the phone is not going to help your digestion. I think there’s more to life to be successful than just working 80 hours a week on your job or your work function.

Rob Artigo: If I hear you correctly, Ray, it seems like it’s a … Excuse me. It seems like it’s really a matter of saying it’s okay to work a lot of hours one week. You just don’t want to make it a habit of doing that throughout your career, because eventually it’ll run you down and you’ll be less useful.

Ray Zinn: Yeah, I know people that literally believe they have to work 80 hours a week or they don’t think they’re being successful, and that’s just a mindset. It’s not reality, and so if you think you have to work 80 hours a week to be successful, God bless you, because you’re not going to live a long healthy life. I ran Micrel for 37 years and I’m still working, even though it’s been 10 years since I sold the company. I’m still actively either writing books or doing podcasts or teaching at the universities, so I haven’t backed off doing things. I just don’t believe that I have to work 80 hours a week to be successful.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, you have your own private plane, and I’d be worried about you, your longevity if I found out, “Okay, I’m in New York, I’m heading to Dallas right now. I’ve got to be in LA by 2:00 tomorrow afternoon. I’ve got a meeting there, it’s an hour. Then I’m going back to the Bay Area.” Something like that, I would definitely find that a concern, but there are people who do that, and I think maybe that’s the kind of thing you do when you’re 25 years old, but when you start piling on those years of hard work, like you said, the longevity’s not there, and then you’re just burned out or we lose you too soon.

Ray Zinn: Well, in my mind, to be successful, it has to be more than just your work opportunity or your work objective. You have work at home to do, you’ve got your family to raise, you’ve got service projects to help others in your community, and it’s more than just pounding away at your job function. Remember, there is a balance you have to have, whether it be in the way you eat, the way you exercise, the way you interact with other people, your family. It has to be balanced. Anything that’s out of balance, as you know, doesn’t do well. Tires on a car that are out of balance, you know what that does to the car and to you, so balance is important.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, I want to thank all the listeners, and in this case, viewers, for those who watch this on YouTube, on your YouTube channel. Thank you for being here for the Tough Things First podcast. You can join the conversation at Toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and your comments are welcome. You can follow Ray on X, Facebook, and LinkedIn, and of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First. As you know, the Zen of Zen series is available, one, two, and three, and on sale now, The Essential Leader, which is this image you see behind me right here, 10 Skills and Attributes and Fundamentals that Make Up the Essential Leader. Thank you, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob. Good to be with you.

Change is the one constant. Handling it is a skill in itself. Ray Zinn has seen his share and you can benefit from that experience.

Ray Zinn: Hi Rob. Good to be here today.

Rob Artigo: Great to be back, Ray. Job changes, industry shifts, entrepreneurial leaps, what do these all have in common? They’re all big changes, right. They’re big. They’re big life choices, or sometimes not even by choice. So we’re bound to face these if we are in the business environment long enough, but we do know they just happen in life. So what are some ways to build resilience so that we can get through those tough challenges?

Ray Zinn: That’s the willingness to accept change. That’s what it starts. If you’re intimidated, if you’re under stress because of the change, then you don’t have that resilience.

So, to build resilience, it means you have to accept change, because change is with us. Whether it be our family, our health, our personal education, whatever it is that bringing about these change, change is with us. We’re not going to ignore, or we can’t resist change.

It’s part of life and something we have to accept. So your willingness, your ability to accept these career changes, is just going to be more to your favor. You can’t grow without change.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. A company can also hit that… those moments too. When you were CEO, there were times when you had to make some changes, and I think of it as pivoting. We talked about on this program a few times about what that means, a way to retool and get going in a different direction.

But your company may face a change that you have to lead the company through. And really, it’s important to have the ability to have that mindset of accepting the fact that change will happen so that you can anticipate events down the road, right.

Ray Zinn: Yeah. In fact, I did a study when I was getting my master’s about change, and GE was a good example, or was maybe it was Westinghouse, one of them. It was either GE or Westinghouse. What they were doing is they were actually changing the color of the walls on a yearly basis. They would change it to a different color, and they would move people around from position to position so they get used to change.

So if you get… if you’re resistant to change, it’s called being in a rut. And so a rut refers to those wagons that back in the early 1800s, where they were having these wagon trains, and they would form these ruts in the road… in the trail, and then if the other wagons would just keep deepening the ruts. And so pretty soon the ruts would get so deep that the wagons were having a hard time because of the friction on the wheel being down several inches into the ground.

It caused the wagon trains to have a difficult time. They had to add more oxen and animals to [inaudible 00:03:14] wagons because the ruts got so deep. So this referred to as being in a deep rut. You got to have change. You move over, so you’re not in the rut. You got to accept change and actually invite change if you’re going to progress.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. And it’s not always easy to do with… if you are… if you’re ill-prepared. So that’s why you have to be… you have to anticipate change, and you have to be able to accept the fact that it’s going to be part of what you do.

Ray Zinn:

Part of that book, Who Moved the Cheese, was a well-known bestseller and talked about these mice that kept going back to the same spot for their meal. And then when that cheese when that got moved, then those mice perished because they were so used to having the cheese in the same spot, and they weren’t willing to go and search out where the cheese may have been moved, that they perished. So you either change or perish.

Rob Artigo: Well, let’s talk a little bit about transferable skills. So if I’m going to be ready for change, I’ve got to be able to know what my skills translate into, right. When I think of transferable skills, I think of a skill that is useful in one job and useful in another job too.

Ray Zinn: Well, in 2015, when I sold the company, I was kind of forced, as you would into retirement. But rather than just go off into the sunset, I started writing books, started teaching at various universities. I started a program called ZinnStarter at these schools. So I had to accept change. I was no longer the CEO of Micrel, a semiconductor company. I was now a retired person having to adjust to a different way of life.

I didn’t have thousands of people working for me. I just had to find something else to do to continue progressing. I won’t just say occupy my time because that’s more laziness as you would. But I wanted to find something more productive to do, not just go out and sit on the rocking chair on the porch. So I said I started writing books. I started teaching. I just had to change. I had to move with the cheese.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. And nobody says that you have to go off into the sunset, as they say, when you retire. You can pivot, and you can keep on doing other things. But that’s what you do. You’ve made a great living after retirement just by getting out and being proactive and staying involved. And that’s an impressive feat in itself.

Ray Zinn: I was talking to a friend of mine who was a CFO of a company. It’s a chief financial officer. And so when he retired, I saw him down at Costco. He was doing food demonstration at Costco. And I said, “Well, gosh, that’s really strange that you would go from being a CFO of a very important company to now you’re just preparing these food samples for people at Costco.”

And he says, “Hey, anything to keep me busy.” So it was… He says, “A lazy life is a lazy mind.” And he says, “Yeah, I may be… I may not be crunching numbers like I was when I was a CFO,” but he says, “I’m crunching these goodies and I’m handing them out and meeting and greeting people.” So he said, “It’s not the money, it’s how I spend my time.”

Rob Artigo: Join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and comments are always welcome there. You can follow Ray on X, Facebook, and LinkedIn, and of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First, the Zen of Zinn series 1, 2, and 3. And on sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals that Make Up the Essential Leader. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks Rob.

Leading with emotional intelligence is a major part of success in any leadership role. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn outlines what is at the heart of developing this difficult skill to master.

Rob Artigo: We have talked at length on this show about your management style, walking around, getting to know employees, and you’ve written about it in your book, The Essential Leader. So I want to unpack that a little bit though, and talk in more detail about self-awareness, which you have, and also empathy, which you also have an abundance of, and incorporating that with your interpersonal skills to be an effective leader.

Are these essential attributes, to coin a phrase from the book, are these essential attributes that you’re looking for in leaders that you hire, as well as what you expect of yourself?

Ray Zinn: Absolutely. My thought goes to what constitutes a good father or a good mother. It starts out, when I’ve heard eulogies given about a person who’s passed away, the thing I hear about them, “They were a good person,” and I’ve never heard a eulogy for someone who has passed that wasn’t considered their goodness, as you would.

When I hear somebody say, “Well, that person’s been a good father or is a good father,” Or mother, or whoever, it’s because of their goodness. The constitution of a good leader is their goodness, G-O-O-D-N-E-S-S. Goodness. Okay. So do we need to define what is goodness?

Rob Artigo: I think you did right there. What is goodness? It is, to me, a peaceful presentation of yourself, to show your empathy, and, really, your ability to communicate. And I think that’s where you get the reputation for goodness.

Ray Zinn: And a word is caring. A good person is a caring person. They care, meaning they honestly and realistically care for others. They put themselves subservient to others. A good father, a good mother, a good husband, a good wife, a good employee, a good leader, that they all start with good, G-O-O-D, good. Good means you’re respectful, you’re honest, you have high integrity, you show dignity and respect for others, and you’re willing to put yourself at risk doing whatever it takes. A good father, a good mother, they look out for their children. Good brothers and good sisters look out for each other. Good husband and good wives out for each other. Good leaders look out for their employees. They put themselves at risk for their employees, I should say.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. Well, and in the workplace with, Micrel is a computer chip company, and you had design teams, you had people that were in creative environments, and I’m wondering if this approach as a good leader helps build stronger teams.

Ray Zinn: Absolutely. I mean, that’s what you want, is you want them to know that you care, that you show respect in all respects. You show respect for others, whether it be your customers, whether it be your vendors, whether it be your employees. That respect has to be number one. And what is respect? It’s a caring attitude.

Rob Artigo: And everyone knows that workplace conflicts do spring up. I mean, even in the best work environments, you’re going to have some conflicts, and they can be creative conflicts, or they can just be personal conflicts, and you just don’t like somebody. But I wonder if empathy and interpersonal skills make a difference in resolving these issues.

Ray Zinn: Sure. We just talked about that. I mean, to be empathetic means you are caring. To be conflict-resoluting, that means you’re caring. You don’t condescend, you don’t use foul language, you don’t use words or definitions of people that are negative or disheartening to those that you’re addressing. They feel your love, and that’s the key, is feeling that love and that respect is what’s key. And so if we can highlight the most important principle or factor to being a loving, caring person, it is to show respect for all individuals.

Rob Artigo: Our listeners can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Questions and comments are always welcome there. Follow Ray on Twitter or X, depending on how you want to reference it, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And of course you can also check out Ray’s books, and we invite you to. Tough Things First is the first one, as you know, there is the Zen of Zinn series, which is one, two, and three. And on sale now, The Essential Leader. Pick up the books. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks Rob.

Making timely, smart decisions can be an everyday occurrence. But what happens when the pressure is turned up and the stakes the highest you have ever faced? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses the key elements of navigating decisions under pressure.

Rob Artigo: Ray, as CEO of Micrel for nearly four decades, you have had to make countless decisions, and so I thought maybe we’d explore just on how effective leaders like you make confident, informed decisions when the stakes are really high. Obviously you’re talking about employees’ futures, the future of the company, people making decisions on investments when it relates to your company, and then also buyers; the people you’re selling to have to have confidence that your company’s going to deliver properly. All of those things are really high stakes in decision-making. So let’s talk a little bit about decision-making and how high stress impacts that process.

Ray Zinn: Sure. Well, what I’d like to do is start out by talking about the culture. Every company needs a culture. And at Micrel, our culture was, number one, honesty, the second was integrity, third was dignity of all individuals, and the fourth was doing whatever it takes, no excuses. So those cultures help form and transform the decisions that we make. All of the decisions that the company made were, whatever the reason, were based on those four cultures as it relates to employees, of course, dignity of every individual. So you make your decision based on that culture of dignity and respect. And then whether it’s dealing with customers or dealing with a bad market, honesty and integrity are very important. So those were the basis of the decisions we made regarding how we run our business, whether it be honesty, integrity, respect, or doing whatever it takes.

Doing whatever it takes is really an interesting one because it talks about how you go about making a decision. Your first decision is, how do I rectify this mistake or this problem that we’re facing and doing it in a way in which none others than yourself will have to suffer? You have to take the biggest hit. And I did that when I was CEO, is whenever we had a layoff or whenever we had a downturn, I took the biggest hit. I took the most time off, or I took the biggest pay cut by a factor of three over everybody else. So I put myself at risk more than I did my employees.

So if you start out with that basis that, whether you’re an employee or whether you’re the CEO, that you’re going to make sure that no one suffers from your mistakes, that you take that responsibility of correcting that mistake, will be key to how well your decision is going to be accepted. When we had to do a layoff or when we had to do a cutback, reducing salaries, they knew that I was going to take the biggest hit. We’re all in it together, as they say. So if your employees or your customers know you’re in it, you’re in it to win it, as they say, then they’re more supportive. And that’s what you need. When you have tough decisions, just make sure that your employees know that you’re on it, that you’re in it 100%, and that you’re not trying to put it off on someone else, that you’re taking full responsibility for that decision. And that’s the key. Just saying, by the way, “Oh, I take responsibility,” doesn’t mean anything. You have to show it. It has to be absolutely clear that you have accepted that responsibility.

So that’s the key to good decision-making is that willingness to accept the penalty, not just the words, the penalty for a bad decision. That’s what it takes. It takes that willingness to make the reparation for your decision and that you’re not putting others at risk; you’re taking on that responsibility, and they can see it. That’s what my people, the employees at my company, saw my willingness to take the penalty to suffer the consequences.

Rob Artigo: In my experience in the Army, we called that lead by example. And you’ve always been a leader in whatever you’ve done, where you’ve set the example, not just in creating the culture, but in living the life. So you’re out there not just talking the talk, you walk the walk, and people respond to that. And I’ve seen that.

Ray Zinn: Well, it’s that Congressional Medal of Honor philosophy. The way you get a Congressional Medal of Honor, and of course you know probably better than me because you’ve had a good career in the military, is that you have… To do something outstanding, you have to take whatever risks that are necessary to save your company or those around you. You’re going to put your life more at risk than anyone else, and that’s how you get the Congressional Medal of Honor. And maybe you could speak a little bit to what that means, because that’s what good decision-making is, is getting that Congressional Medal of Honor

Rob Artigo: Yeah. And most of the people who have the Medal of Honor, not withstanding the fact that… Because people have been getting that award for long enough to where a lot of people end up dying of old age, but they’re deceased when they receive it because of decisions that they made, selfless sacrifice. And I think that’s what you’re talking about here is you’re saying lead by example. Selfless sacrifice is in doing things that you know put yourself at risk, but you’re doing it because you’re living your personal ethos.

Ray Zinn: Yeah, so to be the one making the decisions is also the one who’s willing to take the hit and suffer the consequences. So be a Congressional Medal of Honor winner, either as a leader of your company or as an employee. Have that mentality that you’re going to do whatever it takes, no excuses.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, our listeners can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Comments are always welcome there. You can follow Ray on X, Facebook, and LinkedIn, and of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First and Zen of Zinn series one, two, and three, and on sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills and Attributes and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader. Thank you, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

How do successful people master resilience for career and life success? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says it comes down to mental toughness and the key to that comes from within you.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, let’s talk about how we can develop mental toughness to adapt, to change, and overcome setbacks. This goes to mastering resilience for career and life success because we do need to be resilient. In doing so, we have to develop a certain mental toughness. I wonder if you have an idea of what mental toughness is in your mind.

Ray Zinn: Yeah, it is based on confidence. It’s all about confidence, and how do you develop confidence? Well, that’s the key to our podcast today is how do we get confidence? Actually a trait that we have to develop even as a young person, whether you’re primary school, child or teenager or college. Developing confidence is the key to having this resilience. The way to develop confidence, it goes back to what your standards are, what your beliefs are, what drives you to do anything, whether it’s work or play or school or whatever, is you have to have that confidence that you can succeed.

Rob Artigo: Can we be overconfident because we’re overestimating what we can accomplish?

Ray Zinn: Sure. The way you become overconfident is an ego. It’s all relates to your ego. So if you have a really a pretty large ego, then you’re going to have what we refer to as overconfidence, and of course that can lead to failure just as fast as a lack of confidence. So you want to have a kind of balanced level of confidence so your ego doesn’t get in the way of your progress or your insecurity gets in the way of your progress.

Rob Artigo: Well, in investing, we talk about being risk-averse. Can people be change-averse?

Ray Zinn: Yeah, I think change is difficult for almost all of us. We all resist change, whether you’ve got overconfidence or underconfidence, or whatever your problem is, you do have this lack of focus and that prevents you from developing the proper level of confidence as you would or the proper level of risk that you’re willing to accept. Risk-averse is a challenge for all of us. We all resist change.

It’s like when I was learning to swim as a five-year-old, my uncle, my dad was watching, I actually can remember it even though it’s many, many years ago. I can remember it as clear as day. My uncle told my dad, he’s not going to learn to swim unless you just throw him in. Okay, just letting him paddle around is not going to get him to… So here I am, five years old, he grabs me and he throws me in the pool and my dad was ready to jump in and my uncle stopped my dad from jumping in. My uncle said, “It is not going to hurt him to take a few gulps of water.” So how do you learn to swim? Is by not letting your head stander too long.

A student asked Socrates, “How do I gain knowledge and wisdom?” And Socrates says, “Well, I’ll show you.” And he says, “Meet me down at the ocean tomorrow morning at six o’clock and I’ll show you how to do it.” So the student was actually there by 5:30 and Socrates walked out into the ocean about chest high and he said, “Come on out with me.”

And so then the student went out to where the Socrates was standing in chest high water and Socrates dunked his head under the water and held him there until he could see him gurgling and swallowing amounts of seawater. And then he pulled him up and the student was spitting and shaking his head, and Socrates looked him right in the eye and said, “Now what did you want more than anything else while your head was under water?” And the student says, “I wanted air.” And so the Socrates said, “Well, when you want knowledge and wisdom as much as you wanted air, you’ll find a way to get it.” And that’s the way it was when my uncle threw me the pool, he turned to my dad and said, “Look, he’s learned to swim already.” So, anyway.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, I don’t know. I have seen this technique done before. I’m not sure I’d want to do it because, like your dad, my impulse would be to jump in the water and rescue. But I have seen this technique where they’ve taken basically babies and dropped them in the water and within a few minutes they’re swimming around.

Ray Zinn: Well, there’s that saying, Rob, sink or swim. You ever heard that?

Rob Artigo: Yeah.

Ray Zinn: Okay. That’s what we’re talking about is sink or swim. Years ago when they had that research vessel capsize in the Baja California or whatever it is that ocean in between Baja and Mexico, there’s that research vessel overturned. There were like 10 researchers that were lost in that tragedy. I think it was, what they call it, chubasco. A big storm came up and caused that vessel to overturn, but three of them made it back to shore. So seven were lost and three survived. They were interviewing them and said, “Well, how did you survive? And the others perished?” And the three said almost simultaneously, “We didn’t quit swimming.” So obviously that says something about persistence and what we’re talking about being risk-averse.

Sometimes you just got to keep swimming, as that saying goes, sink or swim. So if you don’t want to die, you better keep swimming. Like Socrates says, when you want knowledge and wisdom as much as you want air, you’ll find a way to get it. So this all ties together, Rob, about how do you have mental toughness and resilience is you just got to keep swimming. You can’t quit swimming.

Rob Artigo: Right. That goes for your continuing education, your physical fitness, all of those things work together to help bolster your chances of success. Well, Ray, join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray on X, Facebook, and LinkedIn, and of course pick up Ray’s books, the Tough Things First book and of course Zen of Zinn Series 1, 2, and 3, and on sale now, The Essential Leader. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks Rob. Good to be with you.

This isn’t politics, it’s madness. In this Tough Things First podcast Ray Zinn discussing the murder of Charlie Kirk and the sickness that plagues the American political landscape. (At the time of this post, no suspect had been arrested.)

Ray Zinn: Hi Rob. How’s it going today?

Rob Artigo: It’s a tough day because we had a 31-year-old conservative activist who was at a speech on a college campus and he took a bullet round to the throat and is dead. And so it’s like hate to have a downer podcast, but it seems like it’s important for us to talk to a little bit about this. Charlie Kirk, founder of Turning Point USA. Give me your reaction right off the bat.

Ray Zinn: Well, listen, as you started out, this is a horrible way to start a podcast, is talking about something as devastating as the death of a young man, father of two little children, just 31 years old, really just starting his career and then to end it in such a tragic way. He was giving a seminar at Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah, which I know very well. I’m involved with that school in my program called Zen Starter, and so that’s a very touching thing for me. It hits right at home because I’ve had grandchildren attend UVU. I don’t have anybody there right now, but I did have children that attended there and graduated from that school. It’s a very good town. I know it well. I’ve been there to give talks and to teach there at that school. I know the faculty, some of the faculty quite well.

As I said, I’m involved philanthropically there, and it was just very, very problematic to have that happen, especially since I’m involved with that school. And it is a very conservative area, that whole area of Provo and Orem are very, very conservative. It was just very surprising to have it happen there, especially given the forum. He had a tour, I think of 15 universities he was going to speak to. He is very engaging with young people, the college-age, young people that follow him on social media. He’s an extremely well-known figure, and I guess he felt perfectly safe, obviously I would too. I mean, I would never, ever expect it to happen there. Maybe that’s why the shooter felt comfortable, because nobody was expecting it. Very little security, that speaks to the problem that we have in this country right now, that you have to have security or you’re in trouble.

Like that young girl, Ukrainian girl a couple of days ago that was stabbed on that train, just minding her own business, sitting there by herself, and then this perpetrator came up behind her and slashed her throat. And the violence that seems to be prevalent in this country speaks to the problem we’re having in this country with violence. Of course, there’s violence in Israel, there’s violence in Ukraine, in various other parts of the world. This violence has just seemed to be increasing at a dramatic rate.

We’re also honoring, or we’re celebrating, I shouldn’t say celebrating, we’re recognizing the 9/11 tragedy that happened in 2001 on September the 11th. Here again, I mean, it is kind of coincidental that we had that killing of that Ukrainian girl, that young 23-year-old, and then that became national media or national recognition. And then we had this shooting of this well-known political figure or political activist, I should say, Charlie Kirk. And then today, I think it is today, we honor those who lost their lives in that 2001 incident where these airplanes crashed into the Twin Towers in New York City.

What’s interesting is that just as a sidelight is I had just returned back from a long trip just a few hours before they shut the whole airport system down. So I don’t think I’ve was home more than six hours when they shut everything down. So that was kind of an interesting thing that I got back in time. But of course, the tragedy of that 9/11 is still with us, and we recognized that every single year.

And then we had this incident yesterday where this very well-known political figure, Charlie Kirk was shot to death by some unknown assailant at this point and looks like it was done professionally. It was very well planned out. I guess these tours are planned well in advance, and somehow or another, this perpetrator had this thing well, looks like well, well planned out. They haven’t found him yet or her, and so the person still remains at large.

But it just shows, in my mind anyway, the tremendous violence that is occurring around this world at this time, and it needs to stop. We need to bring this thing to an absolute halt. And my heart goes out to his family, to Charlie Kirk’s family, his wife and his two children, and Charlie’s parents, and actually all of us. All of us are affected by this sort of violence, whether it be in Gaza or whether it be in Ukraine, wherever it is, it does have an impact on us Rob.

Rob Artigo: I wonder, Ray, if you’re saying that in the past you’ve had relationships with people at the school and the students are there, I mean, a lot of them are directly traumatized by this because they witnessed it happen. And like you said, it extends beyond the campus to everybody else because we now have this specter of assassinations kind of lingering over political discourse in this country, which is really devastating to open dialogue. So I don’t know, Ray, is there something we could tell the students and young people particularly about this, to tone it down, to bring it back to a rational conversation instead of violence?

Ray Zinn: Well, we have to reject what’s going on. I know that on social media today, some of the students were celebrating the death of Charlie. We got to quit that. We got to quit celebrating death, whether it be in Gaza or Ukraine or wherever. We just got to quit celebrating animosity. We have to show more love and concern for each other no matter what our political beliefs are and where we differ in our political beliefs or religious beliefs or whatever, we need to tone that down and show more love and concern for our fellow man. This anger which is being perpetrated around the world, we have to show resilience and condemnation for it.

So what I recommend, and hopefully the people who are listening to this podcast will do is on their own just reject this sort of animosity. As I pointed out a minute ago, on social media there are people who are celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk. I mean, I don’t care what your political belief or religious belief is, you shouldn’t be celebrating death of any kind. This has got to stop.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, it really is a, I’m at a loss for words really when it comes to this kind of thing, because I just can’t believe that we’ve gotten to this point in this country where people do celebrate an assassination.

Ray Zinn: Yeah.

Rob Artigo: Openly, openly on social media. They do videos, these social media videos celebrating this, and it’s mind-boggling to me.

Ray Zinn: And it just shows how crazy things have got in this country that we celebrate this sort of anger and animosity. We shouldn’t have animosity toward anyone. I mean, that should not be even part of our culture is having animosity toward anyone irrespective of their differences in belief. And so I’d like to call a halt to this animosity and focus more on trying to find ways that we can get together and relate better to one another as opposed to being so angry and celebrating the death of a very wonderful young man, irrespective of your differences in your beliefs.

We did this podcast today, Rob, because it is central to themes that we’ve been promoting here on our podcast, and that is to show more respect and love toward our fellow man, and let’s not celebrate this sort of animosity. Let’s reject it. Let’s show anger toward the animosity as opposed to anger toward people who differ in our beliefs.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, the audience can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and your comments are always welcome. Follow Ray Zinn on X, Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First and the Zen of Zinn series one, two, and three, and on sale now The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make up the Essential Leader. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

If you had more than four decades of experience and knew all there was to know about hiring people for important positions, what would you say described a winning resume? Let’s ask Ray Zinn in this Tough Things First podcast.

Rob Artigo: Ray as CEO of Micrel, I’m very interested in your take on this, and you were involved in management your entire adult life, basically at different levels, and obviously the longest period was as CEO of Micrel, semiconductor for 37 years. So you’ve seen your share of resumes for everything from the entry-level positions to the second-in-command at Micrel, for example. I just want to pick your brain a little bit about the kinds of things that you like to see and you don’t like to see. Are resumes your first impression of an applicant? Or do you get something before the resume that gives you a hint as to whether or not you want to talk to this person?

Ray Zinn: Well, the first thing I do, of course, is look at what the job opportunity is so I can size it. Otherwise, I say, “Okay, this job requires a certain education. It requires a certain amount of experience.” And then I kind of put in my mind what the ideal candidate should look like. In other words, whether they’re going to be a janitor as you would, or they’re going to be a vice president. And so I know in my mind, excuse me, what I’m looking for before I actually begin the interview process. Then getting that description out to the public as you would, whether it be through LinkedIn or X or however you use, whatever media you use to get your job opportunity out there, you want to make sure it properly explains what you anticipate.

So if you over exaggerate what you want, in other words, if you say, “I need a PhD,” when I only need a high school graduate, that’s going to discourage some applicants and knowing that, but you’re liable to attract the wrong kind of applicants. Because an applicant, when he looks at that job description, can say, “Well, this doesn’t require a PhD. This company must be a bunch of bozos.”

So you want to make sure that your requirements, the needs of the job are realistic. In other words, don’t exaggerate what’s required for the job. Because you’re going to get the wrong kind of candidates when you put out there the wrong requirements for the job. So that’s the first key is if you’re the hiring company, make sure that your description is realistic. If you get the wrong applicants coming in, you’re going to be wasting your time and you’re wasting their time also. Okay, so that’s the first thing is make sure that your requirements are properly identified. Don’t underestimate them and don’t overestimate them as you would. Be realistic. Look at other apps that are, I mean, other job descriptions for a similar job, and that’ll give you an idea of some of the requirements of your competitors. Okay, now let’s go to, we’re switch hats here and you’re going to become the applicant for that job.

Okay, so what happens is that remember that the hiring company is going to be what we call skeptical. I mean, the first thing is that remember, they’re going to be skeptical. You’re not going to be preaching to the choir. You’re going to be preaching to people who are not going to believe what they read. And so you want to make sure that you know that you’re preaching to a skeptic, okay? So make sure your resume is very, very, very, very realistic. I can’t emphasize that because they can tell from reading your application or your resume, they can tell whether you’re blowing smoke or whether you’re a very humble person. You want to look humble. So don’t exaggerate what you’ve done or what you can do. Be humble, make the application or the resume, make it look like you think it’s a privilege to go to work for that company and then what you anticipate learning. So again, don’t blow smoke, okay? You want to appear very realistic and very humble in your application on your resume.

Rob Artigo: Is it a good idea to tweak your resume, not just send the same one out to everybody, but know the audience that you’re going to be pitching to, whoever the hiring company is, tweak it, maybe skew it a little bit in the direction of what you believe that company might want as opposed to a different company?

Ray Zinn: Well, sure, because you have the job description, I mean, that’s been posted, so you already know what they’re looking for. So don’t have what we call a canned resume. You want your resume or the application that you send in, you want it to be matched where they’re headed. In other words, what they want to see. Don’t make it a canned resume or canned response. You want to ensure that your capabilities match what the job description is requiring, and they can tell that too if it’s just a canned resume. And so if you’re not skewing your resume or your application to the job, they can know that. Yeah, I would make that very, very specific to the job opportunity.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, it’s worth the time, I think. And also there has to be for you, one of the things that one, two, whatever those things are that you hate to see on a resume that automatically makes you not want to call somebody in for an interview.

Ray Zinn: Well, sure. I mean, if you exaggerate your work experience, and I can tell that, I mean, I can see, especially if I really have done my job description properly, I can tell if you’re exaggerating your education or your experience, and I’m also very dubious people who puff themselves up as you would that pump and dump thing where you just pump yourself up. Because you’re not going to sound humble. So the last thing I want to see is a resume from a person who’s just pumping themselves up.

Rob Artigo: It can be a minefield in that respect because some people feel like, well, you have to go in there and show confidence, but you don’t want to go in there and show overconfidence. Obviously, somebody who goes with a has salary range that they want on their resume. I’ve seen that. I don’t know why people do it. The job description probably already has a salary range on it. You don’t need to put it in there. That can be a problem. But also if you really don’t do any work on your resume and it’s just a bland, flat piece of paper, you didn’t work at it. I’ve noticed also, what do you think about length of a resume if it’s three pages long.

Ray Zinn: One page. Okay, one page. And you want to hit the highlights of what you can do, avoid overstating what you have done or what you can do. You want to come across with just the simplest, straightforward details that will catch the eye of the reader and invite you in for a resume or personal interview. So one page, the best resumes are a page long.

Rob Artigo: I want to also say that you mentioned that before you even do the job description, you’re getting an idea of what that person looks like. And by that you mean the whole person. You’re not talking about what they physically look, but what they, is this person going to be right for these jobs? And it has nothing to do with race or gender or anything like that, and it’s just your standard operating procedure is make sure I know what kind of person’s going to fit well in this position.

And I just wanted to point that out for our listeners. There was also something that I saw once in a resume where the person at the start at the top of the resume talked about goals. It said, “I don’t want to work with a team that has a certain number of race color people, white people or whatever on it.” They wanted to work with a diverse team that had a transgender person and an alternative lifestyle people, depending on how you want to look at it. But it was a very odd thing to have on a resume. Does that concern you deeply when somebody puts that kind of demand?

Ray Zinn: Yeah. I mean, well, again, you don’t want to talk about what you do and don’t want. You can’t say, “Well, I want to work for a company that’s ethical.” I mean, that’s obvious. I mean, don’t state the obvious and also don’t state things that are going to raise a red flag like I only want to work for a diverse team. I don’t want to work for all white or all black or whatever. You don’t want to state what you want and what you don’t want. Just stick to the facts, as they say, “Stick to the facts, buddy.” And they’re going to do reference checks on you anyway, and you want to make sure the reference checks match what you’re saying, who you are. And so again, just state the obvious, how it matches the requirements of the job, and then hopefully they’ll bring you in for a personal interview.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, Concise resume that is tailored to the job you’re applying for. So tweak your resume and of course, don’t make any of those major mistakes that’ll raise red flags that you might be a difficult person.

Ray Zinn: Let’s bring up another comment because of the oftentimes is a Zoom type of interview as opposed to a personal. So in a Zoom, make sure that where you are, where you’re doing the Zoom properly reflects how you want to project. I mean, if you’re, you’re doing it from your home and it’s a mess in your house, that’s going to be a turnoff. So make sure that whatever location you’re using to Zooms the interview gives a proper indication of who you are. So I’ve heard a lot of Zooms that find out pretty clearly what kind of person this is, how they’re dressed, and I’ve even heard of them doing a Zoom with their pajamas on and with their hair up and curlers, so to speak. So make sure that how you come across in a Zoom, especially if it’s a video Zoom, not just on audio that, your room, the location that you’re doing the interview from is proper and that you’re dressed properly.

Rob Artigo: The listeners can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray on X, Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First, and the Zen of Zen series one, two, and three. Also on sale now, The Essential Leader. Ten skills, attributes, and fundamentals that make up the essential leader. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: You’re welcome, Rob. Thank you.

Some challenges are financial, others are personal, and some are life changing where only you can decide if you still want success badly enough.  Ray Zinn discusses how to persevere through worst kinds of challenges. (Watch on YouTube)

Ray Zinn: Hello, Rob. Good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: You may not, and others may not, immediately know the name Richard Allen, and you may know the name of his rock band, Def Leppard. He’s famous for not only being a legendary drummer in Def Leppard, but he has one arm. He faced this unique challenge. His left arm was amputated, and you imagine a drummer, you always see these drummers waving their arms around and they’ve got all these drums set up around them and all kinds of things going on. They’ve got to hit all those cymbals and whatnot. And I’m not a drummer, but I know that it looks like it’s a hard thing to do.

Imagine doing that with just one arm. And then he got his arm amputated after being with the band for quite a while, but the band hadn’t reached the pinnacle of success. It was only after he lost his arm that they went on to have their greatest period of commercial success and really make the band a Hall of Fame type of band.

I know that you’ve had your own personal and professional challenges, including we’ve talked about your eyesight situation, you’re legally blind, but also you wanted to launch Micrel Semiconductor back in the day, I think it was, was it ’76?

Ray Zinn: ’78.

Rob Artigo: ’78. So 1978, you go and you decide, “I’m going to found Micrel Semiconductor.” A microchip company, and you faced a $50 million challenge right there, right off the top.

Ray Zinn: Right. So, I’ll need you to understand that in context. See, the average semiconductor company startup at that time in the seventies and eighties was around $50 million, and I didn’t have that kind of money. And to think about trying to start a semiconductor company without $50 million was a gargantuan task, because I would’ve had to use venture capital, and I did not want to use venture capital for all of reasons that why they call it bolster capital, actually was kind of the nickname for it. And that’s the reason I didn’t want to use bolster capital, or venture capital. So, I had to figure out another way of starting the company with my own money, basically.

Rob Artigo: And you could have given up, but you set out on a mission to get it done even when people said you were crazy. Many people,-

Ray Zinn: Everybody said I was crazy. Not one single… The only person that was supporting me was my wife.

Rob Artigo: And you needed-

Ray Zinn: And she’s not a semiconductor expert either.

Rob Artigo: Right. They said that you needed 50 million to get there. You did it with 600,000, roughly, and that did the trick, turned it into a massively successful semiconductor company. And stayed in business the whole time you were a CEO and profitable all but I guess two cycles, or two periods or something.

Ray Zinn: Well, just one year.

Rob Artigo: One year.

Ray Zinn: Yeah, one year. So, that was right at the end of the dot-com implosion, and it was in 2002. We had lost over half our customers because of that dot-com implosion. And so, we had to reinvent ourselves to try to stabilize the company and last that cycle, that dot-com implosion cycle.

Rob Artigo: Again, another one of those periods where all of a sudden you’re sinking, but you were prepared for downturns at Micrel. And that preparation made it possible for you to do something that a lot of people didn’t do in Silicon Valley during that period, which was stay in business and stay on track. But again, this is a thing where a company CEO faces a challenge and could just say, “All right, look, I’m done. I can retire now or I can quit.” Or whatever, or leave it to somebody else to deal with it. But you didn’t, you persevered.

Ray Zinn: Well, it goes to the concept that if at first you don’t succeed, try, try again. And we were prepared, as you mentioned, we were prepared for a downturn. We always hope for the best, but we expect the worst. And so, with that mentality, with that thought in mind that you hope for the best, but expect the worst, that means you’re prepared. You don’t just ignore reality. And reality is you’re going to have bad times. What goes up has to come back down.

And so, we knew it would happen, we were prepared for it. I had predicted it in May of 1999. I actually predicted the downturn that occurred in 2001, as a result of the dot-com implosion. And so, we were ready, because we had forecasted it or we had foreseen it, and that allowed us then to get ready so that when it did happen, we didn’t go under. We were able to continue on. It was a struggle. We had to do some very difficult things, cut back headcount, reduce salaries.

We had to do a lot of things to stem the red, as you would, when the implosion happened, but we came out the other side even stronger. So it’s like breaking a bone. If you break your leg, actually your bone grows stronger. It’s painful at first, and you have to be in a cast and on crutches and stuff, and we were, we were on crutches and we had a cast on, so to speak, but by just knowing that we’d come out the other side stronger gave us that confidence that we would come out the other side even better.

The story is told about this Olympic marksman. He was from Germany, and this is back in the Olympics, he’d won the Olympics, this is many years ago. I don’t remember the exact year, but he was a German marksman, pistol shot, pistol marksman, and he had won it with his right hand. But then he had an automobile accident and he lost his right hand, and so the next Olympics, four years later, when it came around, he actually won it again, but with his left hand. Now that’s extremely hard, especially if you’re right-handed and right-eyed, to come back and win with your left hand. But he did, he came back and won the Olympics with his left hand.

Just because you have a setback… I lost my vision in 1994, and at first I was in a state of depression, “Oh my gosh, how am I going to move on from here?” But then I said, “Well, it’s like if you get thrown from your horse, you get back on again and keep riding.” So I just said, “Okay, I’ll have to deal with it. I lost my vision, so I still got to deal with it.” And I did. I built a company even stronger after I had lost my vision, because you become resolute. If the challenge doesn’t knock you down, if it doesn’t put you under, as they say, then you can come out the other side even stronger, because what you do is you compensate. You develop that ability to build, make weak things become strong. And that’s what I did, I made a weakness become a strength.

And so, I lost my vision, I became better. My memory improved 10 times over what it was, because I wasn’t relying on my eyesight to memorize or to record information in my head. So, actually my memory improved, and that was one of the best things that happened was my memory got better, and that was an advantage to have my memory better. We do compensate, just like this fellow, this one-armed drummer, you compensate for that lack of shoulder or arm, and you become actually better. He was a better drummer than he was before when he had two hands.

So, just because you have a deficit, or because you have some kind of handicap that comes along, doesn’t mean you can’t succeed. Success comes from desire, from that ability to pick up the pieces and move on. And so, anytime you have a challenge or a deficit, a problem that crops up, rather than looking at it as, “Oh, woe is me.” Then you become the victim. You look at it as, “Okay, I’m going to make this a strength. I’m going to take this challenge and make it a gain.” In fact, that’s what we do really when we run businesses. All we’re doing is taking difficulties, problems and challenges and using them to our advantage. That’s how you become successful.

Look at an artist. They start off with a blank sheet, and then they have to create the image that they want to project on the piece of paper. We all start with a blank slate sometime. We didn’t all start as CEOs when we were born.

Rob Artigo: Right. Well, turning a challenge into a triumph inspires others around you, and then they feel like they can do it too, they see how much you’ve done, and so that’s why you’re an inspiration to so many people. So thank you, Ray.

The listeners can join the conversation at Toughthingsfirst.com. If they have comments, they can leave them there. You can follow Ray on X, Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course his books are out there, Tough Things First and the Zen of Zinn series. It’s Zen of Zinn 1, 2, and 3. And on sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills and Attributes and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

It has been quite the ride on the stock market in 2025, but it hasn’t been the one many expected in January. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn talks about how the market tanked but came back in what seemed like record time.

Ray Zinn: Hi, Rob. Good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: Well, it wasn’t very long ago, Ray. We all remember it. This is 2025 and early in 2025, the stock market plummeted and there were talks of deep drops that were going to come after that and fears about recession. How did the markets find their way back to new record highs in such a short period?

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Tough Things First Podcast: Ray Zinn discusses his commencement speech at San Jose State. (Watch)

Rob Artigo: Well, you have the honor to do the commencement speech at San José State recently, and you described it as a bucket list moment. What was it that you felt was so special about doing it?

Ray Zinn: Well, if you think about all the things in life you want to accomplish, your bucket list defines what your goals are. And education is extremely important to me and always has been. And so, this is going back, I would say probably 25 years ago. I was talking to a friend of mine who was asked to do a commencement address. And I got thinking, I wonder why I haven’t been asked to do it, given my help with the schools, and the things I do as end starter and other programs that I have scholarship-wise, why I haven’t been asked to be a commencement speaker. And so, it was just something I didn’t really voice out loud. It was just something I was thinking about. So, there’s this movie called The Bucket List, if it’s called The Bucket… but anyways, a movie about this fellow who had a bucket list. And he was striving to… before he left this world and went on the other side as they say, there’s some things he wanted to accomplish.

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Do you often think of the words that exist within words and how they expand and deepen meaning? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn talks an about the word inspiration.

Rob Artigo: This is a good reading that we’re going to do here. This is from the Zen of Zinn 3, your third book in this series, inspirational quotes, Proverbs and things like that that you have written over time. And let me just read one of them. This is from page 215. I flip through these every once in a while just looking for different ones that catch my attention and might be worthy of a podcast. And I think this one is, so let’s read this one. It’s very short.

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There are differing views on justifying dishonesty. Revenge or righting wrongs with more wrongs seems to be the default position of many these days. But in this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says there is an honest answer to this question.

Rob Artigo: Ray, you recently wrote a musing that caught my attention. I thought this is surely going to be a good conversation because people need to hear it in modern times, we definitely need to be reminded of this. This is what you wrote. There is no legitimate excuse for dishonesty. In Victor Hugo’s famous story, Les Miserables, the main character, Jean Valjean, stole a loaf of bread because he was hungry. It was still dishonest for Jean Valjean to take something that wasn’t his just because he was trying to survive. We often try to rationalize dishonesty because of some reason we believe is for the better good. There is nothing good about being dishonest, no matter our motive.

We can choose between the lesser of two evils, but evil is still evil and we will need to live with the consequences. Just remember, we will need to live with the consequences of our choices, whether they are good or evil. And I would imagine, Ray, that the inspiration behind this was just seeing so many people, including politicians, justifying their actions by saying, well, because somebody else is doing something wrong, I have to do something wrong. And it ends up becoming a problem for everybody.

Ray Zinn: Yes. Last night I was talking with a friend of mine who was in the Vietnam War. He was in the trenches, as you would. He was over in Vietnam and actually fighting literally with a gun and a rifle or whatever. What was interesting was he felt because the Vietnamese were so dishonest, in other words, they didn’t follow, as you would, the Queensborough rules of conduct, as you would, that they were allowed then to do similar, in other words, fight fire with fire. And I thought that was kind of interesting because oftentimes we tend to fight fire with fire and rather than whether what we’re doing is honest, so is there an excuse to be dishonest or not to be doing what’s correct or right? I’m sure there is an excuse, but it doesn’t make it right just because we have a good excuse.

And I thought this would be good in this podcast to talk about, is there a good excuse to do something dishonest or not something that’s ethical? And we could get a lot of argument and people not agreeing with this, but it is worthwhile talking about how important is being totally honest. And I think that at the end of the day, no good deed goes unpunished and there’s a lot of truth to that. Often helping somebody else, you end up hurting yourself, as you would. We could get a lot of people disagreeing with, is there any reason to be dishonest? And I stand by my statement in my musing that there is no good reason to be dishonest.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. And just simply doing wrong. The saying is, ends justify the means. And I think we live in an era right now where a lot of people think it doesn’t matter really how bad my behavior is, if the end justifies the means, and whether that is stopping law enforcement from doing their jobs or setting a church on fire or something like that. People get it in their heads that whatever their motive is and whatever the end goal is, that they can do anything necessary. There’s even a protest organization out there called, By Any Means Necessary. Just in the name it’s very threatening. By any means necessary, and I think that that’s what you’re talking about here is that just because you feel like you’ve been wronged doesn’t mean you should go wrong other people.

Ray Zinn: Well, it’s that end justifies the means concept. As I said, I was talking to this friend of mine last night about his experience in Vietnam. We had certain rules and rules of engagement, as you would, and they wanted to go around those rules of engagement and kind of fight fire with fire, and it was difficult for them to not, as they call clipping in football, or there’s another term for it in hockey where you slam them up against the boards and anger is what drives people to do dishonest things, is really the root of it’s called anger. We deviate from our honesty, as you would, our integrity, when we’re angry. So to avoid doing that, you just try to avoid being angry. Try to look at the positive side, try to, as you would, let them slap the other side of your face, that biblical saying.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, turn the other cheek.

Ray Zinn: Right, strike, if they strike you on one side, turn the other side, let them strike you there. I know that sounds hard. I mean, I know that sounds bad. I know that some time ago a woman whose daughter was raped and murdered by, this is in Germany, this German mother, her daughter was raped and murdered by this criminal. She went into the court with a loaded gun and shot him seven times. Of course she’s going to pay for that. You say, is that justified? Is she justified taking this into her own hands? And some people would argue, yes. I mean, yeah, because he killed her daughter, then she had a right to kill him. That’s why we have rules. That’s why we have laws. If we don’t obey the laws, then we become a lawless society.

While I might empathize with that woman for wanting to kill or did kill that criminal, that murderer, we still have to follow the laws. I mean, it’s like going down the freeway. Just because you feel that the speed limit is not authorized or not correct, doesn’t mean you should go ahead and break it because you will pay a price for it. There’s no deed, no bad deed will not ultimately go unpunished. So they say that there’s no good deed that goes unpunished either, but certainly no bad deed will ultimately go unpunished.

Rob Artigo: Well, I’ll give you another saying as we wrap this up. When you first set out for an act of revenge, you first dig two graves because it’s going to be both of you that go down. I think that’s the lesson here is that if you try to correct a wrong or a perceived wrong and you do it by creating another wrong, then like you said here, you have to live with the consequences of your choices, good or evil.

Ray Zinn: That’s right.

Rob Artigo: Join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and comments are welcome. Follow Ray on X, Facebook and LinkedIn and pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First. And as you know, the Zen of Zinn series is out there, one, two, and three. On sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

It’s not enough to succeed at first. We must continue to excel. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn talks about the need for constant self improvement and professional development.

Rob Artigo: So I guess the question here is when is it okay to neglect skill building and updating knowledge, your knowledge of work or whether just self-improvement? I think that based on what I know about you, the answer is you should never stop. Right?

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It turns out chat bots for chat or phone-in help lines are a mixed bag of results. Is the pendulum swinging back in favor of live human help? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn talks pros and cons of Ai assistance and human communication barriers.

Ray Zinn: Hi, Rob. Good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: I thought we’d talk a little bit about chatbots. If you call an organization, and you get a voice comes on, and it’s an artificial voice, and you’re sort of navigating the choices of what you want to get to using this computer voice. Or it could be also doing one of the … If you’re online, and you’re doing a chat with a artificial intelligence giving you the answers right there instead of a person.

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Now more than ever, we are all forced to question what we see and hear, but where our own biases are involved we usually don’t. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses the imperative of recognizing how easily we are duped by ourselves.

Rob Artigo:  Well, Ray, I was reading Zen of Zinn 3. On page 244, you wrote about how we live in a time of so much information at our fingertips that it makes it harder for others to deceive us. It means, in other words, there’s so much information out there that anybody who’s trying to lie to us is going to have a harder time lying to us. But you also say, “That depends on whether or not we take the responsibility to check or verify the source of the information so we could get information that is intended to deceive us. And if we’re lax about taking that responsibility, then we just assume that what they’re saying is true.”

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Why strong leadership doesn’t mean leading with power. In this Tough Things First podcast Ray Zinn offers some thoughts on why many organizational leaders get it wrong.

Rob Artigo: Well, you recently wrote, Ray, “The essence of leadership is not the wielding of power, but rather the wielding of grace and nurturing.” This is in line with what you wrote in your new book, The Essential Leader. You have made it a practice of being closer to your employees than the average CEO. Over the many years that you ran Micrel, 37 years you ran Micrel and you made a difference in the way that you operated as a CEO, which made you stand out from other CEOs in Silicon Valley. Why is that?

Ray Zinn: Well, if you’re wielding your leadership with power, that’s a negative. In other words, you’re using fear to get what you want done. And instead of wielding power, you’re wielding grace and nurturing, that’s love. So the difference is one is fear and the other is through love.

When we did a study on people who exited the company or left the company, we found that 75% of the people that leave are leaving because they’re having a problem with their manager because that manager wielded power rather than nurturing and grace. If you think of that, that’s 75% of the people, if that study that we did is correct, that 75% of the people that are unhappy at work are unhappy because of their boss and that that’s critical.

So managing by love, we talk about the steward leadership, you’re actually leading your flock as opposed to driving them. So as a shepherd, as you would, if he is a true shepherd, then he’s out in front leading his flock. If he’s having to dry the flock, he’s behind him with a whip or with some kind of punishing device to make them do what he wants them to do. And so when you wield power, you’re driving, you’re doing it through fear and intimidation. If you’re doing it through grace and love, then you’re out in front leading them. You’re not pushing them or driving them. And that’s why I came up with that musing referring to wield grace and truth, not power as a leader. And I think that’s important and critical if you want a stable and a loving workforce.

Rob Artigo: And you had an open door policy, you said, “Hey, come talk to me if you want.” I suppose there are some CEOs out there wielding their power in a authoritarian manner where they might say, “Hey, I have an open door policy,” but nobody ever goes there because they’re afraid of talking to that person. You made it a practice of walking around and talking to your employees so that they knew you well, and they knew that they could trust you if they had something they wanted to talk to you about. I suppose that makes a difference in the way that the employees behave?

Ray Zinn: Yeah. I recently did a leadership training for a company and I had the CEO of the company rank the people that reported to him and the managers that were reporting to the CEO, had them rank the people that were working for them and so forth and so on down the line. And it was interesting that the first line was like the CEO, the managers that worked for him, he rated them high, but he also rated the people that worked for his managers, he rated them low. But when we looked at the managers, they rated their employees high. So you can see that the second level, the CEO thought we’re doing a poor job, but yet the people that are working directly for them, the first line of managers, rated them higher.

So there’s a miscommunication there between the CEO and the second line of managers versus the first line. And I thought that was interesting. So there’s a breakdown. There’s a communication issue. It’s like dropping water over a cliff. If you’re right underneath the vessel that you’re dumping the water with, you’re going to get drenched. But as a water then gets down to the bottom of the cliff, you don’t feel it at all. So what’s happening is that apparently the CEO does not have faith in his first line managers or he would’ve rated the people that work for them higher. There’s a communication issue that has to be resolved where the first line manager rates his direct reports much better than he rated the people that were below them. I just say that’s a huge breakdown, I think, in communication that they have to resolve. And that’s the whole purpose of that musing, wielding grace and nurturing, not power.

Rob Artigo: The people that were in that class and the CEO and then the mid-managers and whatnot, were they surprised by that result and your take on it?

Ray Zinn: I wasn’t surprised. I was disappointed, obviously, but I wasn’t surprised because this is why I was there, was to dig into the problem. And it’s not surprising that the second level people rank their employees better than first level. That’s not unusual. You see, you tend not to want to blame the people report to you because you want to be considered to be a good manager. So obviously you’re going to rank those that report directly to you, you’re going to rate them higher. And you don’t have as much confidence or you don’t have as much love for the people that report to the first line managers, so you tend to rate them lower because that’s why you’re having problems in your company is because you believe that the lower level people are not doing their job. It’s not true. It’s first line that’s not doing their job or the CEO would love those that report to them.

We need to go to school on that and understand why it is that the people that report directly to you, you rank higher than those that report to them. And if that’s the case, you have a problem in your company or your organization. This is pretty universal. I mean, This is not just at this one company. I mean, I’ve seen this, even the school and in universities. I’ve seen it happen in nonprofit organizations. I’ve seen it in religious organizations and social organizations. This is not something new. This is a problem where the top managers think that that report to the first line managers are not doing their job. And that’s a definite signal or sign that you have a problem within your company. If you don’t feel as good about the people that report to your first line, if you don’t have as good a feeling about that, then that means you’ve got to breakdown somewhere in your organization.

Rob Artigo: And obviously Ray, you have said that it’s important for you as CEO to know your people and nurture them, but be a mentor, and that’s the remedy to the problem that exists, like you said, universally across different organizations.

Ray, the listeners can join the conversation at ToughThingsFirst.com. Their questions and comments are always welcome. Ray, you’re on X and Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course your books are out there. You have the Tough Things First book, you have Zen of Zen 1, 2 and 3, and of course the new book, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader. Ray, another great podcast. Thank you.

Ray Zinn: Well, thanks Rob.

Is it true that you should trust but verify? In this Tough Things first podcast, Ray Zinn if you have to verify, there’s no trust involved. (Watch Video Podcast)

Ray Zinn: Hey, Rob. Good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: Good to be back. Well, this is a special edition of The Tough Things First Podcast. It is a video podcast. If you want to watch the video, you can go to the website, toughthingsfirst.com, find this podcast, and then click on the link that takes you to Ray’s YouTube channel. And then click on that and you’ll be in the know, like so many others in Silicon Valley listening and watching this particular podcast.

Ray, recently you wrote about the phrase trust but verify. This is made famous by Ronald Reagan. It’s also a Russian proverb, but that’s where it comes from originally. But you say it’s a mistake to go by this saying because you describe it as blind trust. Tell me about that.

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Is the push for American Made an open door to a would be entrepreneur? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn tells us how it could be done for those seeking the American Dream.

Ray Zinn: Hi Rob. How’s it going today?

Rob Artigo: Great. So with a nation, I feel like we’re in a mode of… There’s turmoil going on and there’s some uncertainty out there, but one of the interesting things is this drive to bring some manufacturing back to the US and I’ve been thinking about are there opportunities for would-be entrepreneurs out there to dive in and take a chance on some of these things? This would be like carving out a niche, making a product that is typically known to be made overseas and making them here instead. And I think you can do it on kind of a small scale. Also going based on the idea that people who are doing this might have limited time and limited resources to get going, but they may have come up with a brilliant idea and something they’d really like to do and maybe take charge of their own destiny in that respect. Here are some suggestions that I pulled together and it really references how to pull it off. I talked about limited resources, financial resources, and limited time.

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Failure happens. But is it really a failure if you learn something valuable? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses how a few business failures paved the way to a massively successful semiconductor company.

Rob Artigo: Here with me is Ray Zinn, the longest-serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Being invited back is always great, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Hey, Rob, every day is a good day when I get to do a podcast with you.

Rob Artigo: Oh, I appreciate that. Of course, it’s fun and we have great conversations. So you ran a very successful semiconductor business for 37 years, Micrel, but before you did that, you had a couple of failed business ventures that had to be disappointing and emotionally taxing, but you used those experiences as motivation to find something bigger and better.

Ray Zinn: Absolutely.

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Working from home may have seemed like progress over hustle culture, but has it brought on something worse? Un-Hustle culture. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says one bad work ethic has led to a worse work ethic.

Rob Artigo: Let’s talk about hustle culture. One of the soundbites we use in the intro for this podcast is… It’s one of my favorites from you. You say, “If you think you have to work 80 hours a week to be successful, then you’re dead wrong.” So when I was looking for topics for the podcast session, I saw the words hustle culture on the internet, and I immediately thought of that quote. So hustle culture is the belief that you have to grind it out 24/7. And I imagine you’re not a fan of hustle culture.

Ray Zinn: No. Not at all.

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Ray Zinn: Hi Rob. Good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: Page 89 is what I’m focused on in Zen of Zinn 2, the book you wrote, and it’s about the victim mentality, and you talk about it by sharing a list that you created and you called it the victim mentality list, appropriately named. So I thought we would go through some of these items here on this list of the victim mentality and just talk about why they are associated with the victim mentality. The first one is blame. When it comes to the victim mentality apparently blame tops your list. Tell me about it.

Ray Zinn: Well, what’s interesting, Rob, is that the victim mentality, if I were to ask you, “Rob, do you have a victim mentality?” You would probably say what?

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We all know change is inevitable, but layoffs can be devastating when you find your once secure job has vanished. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says don’t panic, just be prepared.

Rob Artigo: Here with me again is Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Hi Ray.

Ray Zinn: Hello Rob.

Rob Artigo: You are always thinking and reflecting on the world around you, and that’s really great for your writing. You recently wrote this and it goes, “Our current economy is in a state of flux. Layoffs are inevitable. Layoffs, they’re terrible and they’re disruptive. Lives are impacted. What’s the resolution,” you say, “to minimize the impact of layoffs? First, don’t panic. You’ll recover. It is just a matter of time before you will have this behind you. Second and most important is to always have yourself prepared for layoffs. You’re basically living within your means. Avoid unnecessary debt. Always looking for other opportunities as a backup plan, and keep your name out there. Bottom line, always assume things are never permanent. Change is always out there and being prepared for change is the best approach.” Very good writing there, Ray.

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What you need to know now. In this Tough Things First podcast Ray Zinn demystifies the troubled waters so we can all get it and look forward. Call it Part 1.

Rob Artigo: Good to be back, Ray. Nice to see you. Thriving amid uncertainty and handling adversity. That’s what we’re talking about here in this podcast. 2025 has been a wild ride so far, and I’m not really overstating that, am I?

Ray Zinn: What’s interesting is last week I met with the Montana Secretary of State and her team. I gave this talk on leadership. It went fine except they wanted to ask some questions about uncertainty in the world and especially in the US economy. So, I thought that was interesting and appropriate, why we should cover that and discuss it today because foremost in everybody’s mind is what impact, inflation? Is there a recession pending? What about interest rates? What about tariffs, and what’s going on with the stock market? So let’s talk about them kind of individually, just as I listed the topics that I covered.

So, if we look at inflation, what’s happening with inflation? Well, you’re probably getting this on the news, but inflation looks like it’s abating. In other words, it came down some last month. Will it continue to come down? There’s a big speculation regarding the effect of tariffs, so let’s talk about tariffs before we jump into a recession.

Tariffs are meant to level the playing field between countries and especially those that sell to the US, so that’s been bandied around and beat up quite a bit over the last week or two. Tariffs are meant to, at least the way that the Trump administration looks at it, it’s meant to bring the other countries to the table and negotiate with them a better term so that we can sell to them. It’ll have a big impact on Ag culture. The Ag culture is the one that’s going to benefit the most from these tariffs released.

Now, the other countries which are selling cars, refrigerators, dishwashers, consumer electronics and so forth to us because the labor is cheaper in those countries is the big debate. That’s where everybody is having a proverbial fit over it. Depending on how fast we can bring automation back to the US or automation in the sense of the word of reducing the labor costs, that will help that issue regarding the products that we offshored to reduce the cost of the product and the labor to produce it. So if we get more automation, AI and so forth, that really helps us, and we’re able to produce in this country at the same when we offshored it, then there won’t be any impact on the product that’s coming into the country.

If we have multiple countries that produce the same product, then there’s some competition, and that could impact or at least minimize the effect of the prices on the product coming in because of the competition between countries. So, this all depends upon what kind of products that are going to be onshore versus offshored and just how fast we can go to full-blown automation or AI, as some people refer to it.

The biggest impact on this is going to be on consumer electronics, clothing and that sort of thing. I think Trump has now backed off on tariffs on consumer electronics, so that’s kind of been settled. Clothing? Again, that’s all a function of automation and what countries will compete with each other. There’s a lot of countries that are producing clothing, so that won’t have as big an impact if they’ll compete with each other. I’m not sure how big of an impact that’s going to be on pricing for clothing because I’m not sure. I don’t believe we’re going to produce much clothing here in the US. We’ve kind of lost that skill, that art as you would, and those other countries have picked up that capability, and there’s a lot of labor involved in making clothing.

What impact will that have on our economy as far as interest rates and so forth, and are we looking at a recession? So the Fed, federal banking, looks at things like inflation and whether or not the economy is growing or recessing. Of course, to get the interest rates down, you have to lower spending. In other words, you’ve got to drop demand. So when you drop demand, then of course the GDP will minimize, which you’re going to have less GDP growth, which brings me to really talking about the business cycle.

So in Q1, quarter one, which is January through March, that’s our weakest quarter. In fact, it’s coming off of Christmas, and Q1 is a very weak quarter. So, we’ll start seeing the numbers on how Q1 went in another month or so. Not in a month. Let’s say another few weeks, actually, as these companies start reporting their results.

Q2 is typically a more upbeat quarter. In other words, you’re coming off of the down Q1, and Q2 which is then April through June should be a better quarter. So, all eyes are on how bad was Q1 and how good does Q2 look? We won’t learn about Q2 until probably August. Well, early August, late July. So, you can see kind of the timing. We’re in a no man’s land because we’re coming off a weak quarter, so we don’t expect great results. If we get decent results off of Q1, that’ll help the stock market.

So then Q3, which is July through September, is our strongest quarter. In other words, that’s the best quarter of the year. Again, we don’t get results on Q3 until more like late October, first part of November. Then Q4, which is October through December, is a slower period. Let me back up a minute, going back to Q3, so Q3 is building up for Christmas. Christmas is our strongest season and even worldwide. That’s why Q3 is generally a stronger quarter, and Q4 is more of a flattish quarter. We don’t expect hardly any growth because you’re coming off of Christmas or you’re in Christmas as you would. I’m not sure that you’re going to get a big bump in Q4. Then back to Q1, which is a bad quarter or a weak quarter.

So, we’re all looking at the numbers, looking at how the companies report, and that will definitely impact the stock market. Is there going to be a recession? In order for interest rates to come down, GDP has to slow. Okay. When GDP slows, depending upon what political bent you are, you’re going to scream your head off. If the GDP comes down and it’s looking like we’re getting into a recessionary period, and the other side is saying, “Well, look. We’re naturally transitioning from a no tariff to tariff, so that’s having some impact.” What impact will that have on inflation depends again how the government negotiates these tariffs.

So, are tariffs good? They can be. Are tariffs bad? They can be. So, it just depends upon how well you manage that. We really didn’t have an income tax in this country. We used tariffs to raise our government spending, and therefore there was no need of income tax until we backed off of the tariffs. Then we had to go to an income tax in order to cover the government spending.

I know it’s a lot of information that we’ve beat around, but you can see that it’s kind of a wait and see. We haven’t had big tariffs for many, many years. Probably 40, 50 years since we’ve had any kind of a tariff situation or a tariff issue. We’re marching at a new territory.

When will interest rates come down? They’re going to come down when the Fed decides that the economy is in trouble. We need to lower interest rates in order to encourage spending, so you can see it’s kind of a what if type thing, depending upon what the economy does that will decide whether or not interest rates are going to come down.

Are we going to have a recession? Well, depending upon what kind of recession we’re talking about. Are we talking about just a reduction or slowing in GDP? Do you call that a recession? Well, if you’re more liberal, you’re going to call that a recession. If you’re more conservative, you’re going to say, “No, that’s just a natural slowing. That happens on normal business cycles, which occurs every three to five years.” So, everybody is going to be painting the picture that they want to make everybody understand what they believe is what’s going on in the economy.

I don’t think the recession is going to be terrible. There is going to be a slowdown, if you want to call it a recession. That’s what recess means. Recess means to slow down. Are we going to go into a depression? I don’t think that’s the case because we’ve got too many levers we can pull to prevent a depression. So anyway, that’s a short tutorial on the state of the economy, Rob.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, you covered a lot of territory there. Very interesting stuff. It’s a time in our history really where that stuff, it’s important today, and it’s going to be important for the rest of the year as things fluctuate. We don’t know what other countries are going to do. We don’t know how the tariffs will change things with some countries and how it will change things with us in some areas. It would be interesting to listen to what your take is throughout this year. We’ll try to do this more often. So, join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and your comments are always welcome.

Ray Zinn: Hit me with an email on toughthingsfirst.com. I’ll be happy to answer them if you have further questions. If you would like to see more detail on this subject, please feel free to let us know. We’re happy to revisit this discussion. In fact, we’ll do it every quarter. So, if you chime in every quarter, we’re going to give an update on the economy.

Rob Artigo: Follow Ray Zinn on his X, Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course, Ray’s books. You’ve got to pick them up. Tough Things First is the big one, his first book. As you know, there is the Zen of Zinn Series 1, 2, and 3. On sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up The Essential Leader. Thanks a lot, Ray.

Ray Zinn: You’re welcome, Rob.

Rob Artigo: Now announcing, The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn. 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up The Essential Leader. Watch for it as it arrives at your favorite retailers in paperback and digital format. It’ll be everywhere by the official launch date, March 12th. That’s The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn. Don’t miss it. Thank you for listening to the Tough Things First podcast.

Do we live in a culture that promotes comparisons to others? Is it jealously, envy? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says keeping up with trends may be healthy, but keeping up with the Jones’s may be a problem.

Rob Artigo: I recently read a quote where the writer said he had not met a person on the planet who did not compare themselves to others. He pointed out that we live in a society that perpetuates comparison at every turn, from social media and magazines to commercial ads and perhaps even the car sitting in the driveway at the neighbor’s house. It’s almost impossible not to find a potential trigger of comparison right in front of your eyes. That was authored. Davin Salvagno wrote at length about it.

So first, do you agree that we live in a society that perpetuates comparison at a return?

Ray Zinn: Yes and no. We look at hairstyles, we look at clothing styles, we look at car styles, whatever. We do kind of follow along with the trend, and so that’s a comparison, as you would, because we’re looking at how others are dressing, how others are doing their homes. I remember we used to, when I was early, young, married, we had a shag carpet and no one has a shag carpet today or-

Rob Artigo: Yeah, that’s true. I remember those.

Ray Zinn: Yeah, or the kind of furniture that we have, we try to stay up-to-date with what’s trendy, as you would.

Rob Artigo: That’s Keeping Up with the Joneses’ scenario.

Ray Zinn: That’s the other part of the topic. Okay?

Rob Artigo: Okay.

Ray Zinn: So, we’re talking about now how we do a comparison other than Keeping Up with the Joneses. So it’s not necessarily Keeping Up with the Joneses in the sense of the word that we’re going to talk about next, let’s just talk about comparing ourselves with the trends. In other words-

Rob Artigo: Gotcha.

Ray Zinn: … we want to make sure we’re not wearing the wide tie if the narrow ties are in or we make sure we’re not doing a pompadour hairdo if more of the short hair or whatever kind of haircut. The big style right now is beards on men. I’ve never had a beard, and so when I do the comparison, I compare myself to myself, this is who I am. I don’t wear a beard, and so I am not a beard-type guy. I’m not mocking at people who do have beards, I’m just saying that’s not my thing, but that’s a comparison again. I’m not comparing me against them. I’m comparing myself against myself. That was my goal. My desire is to not have facial hair, and that gets us into the second part of our topic is how we compare ourselves against the Joneses.

So if you’re trying to keep up with the Joneses, that’s a different part. That requires a different view. That’s called envy, E-N-V-Y. Envy that’s the part of it, and that’s the negative part of comparison. If we’re comparing ourselves against the Joneses, then we’re being envious because now we’re just trying to up one, be better than somebody else, the bigger car, the bigger house, the whatever, the fancier this, the fancier, oh, I got this, I got an airplane. You just drive around a little Volkswagen or whatever. Those are the bad kinds of comparisons where we are comparing ourselves against the Joneses. I’m opposed to that. I like to stay up-to-date, but I’m not comparing myself against the Joneses. I’m just looking at the trends and trying to stay within the trends.

Now, some of them I like, some of them I don’t like, so I’m not a, what you would say is I’m not necessarily a full-blown trendy. I don’t go along with everything, all the trends that are. I do the ones that I want to go along with. Again, I’m comparing myself to myself. What do I want? What’s my goal? What do I like to be like or look like? So again, the comparison should not be against the Joneses. The comparison should be against who you are and who you want to be. That’s the main goal.

Rob Artigo: The style thing is a perfect example, but also if you are one of those people who compares themselves to others’ levels of success, you can say, “Look, that’s what I would like to achieve,” that’s a good kind of comparison in the area that you were talking about versus, “I envy that person because they’re doing it, but yet I’m not doing anything to achieve that level of success.” Right?

Ray Zinn: Yeah. If you’re out there trying to impress people and how great and how wonderful you are, how beautiful or handsome or whatever, that’s doing it for the wrong reason. The right reason is comparing yourself to what you want to be, not comparing yourself to others and trying to beat your chest and say how wonderful or great you are, “Oh, I went to Harvard,” or “I went to Stanford,” maybe you went to San Jose State, like I did. I don’t look down on that. I looked at it as great, but I know others, “Yeah, where’d you get your degree?” “Oh, I went to Harvard. I went to Stanford, or I went to Berkeley,” or whatever. That’s the wrong kind of approach. Again, you have to look at where you want to be compared to where you’re going and what you want to accomplish.

Rob Artigo: You look at the titles on what people put on their walls behind their desks and that’s one thing that’s establishing your credit, if you will, your credibility and also displaying something that you’re proud of, but it’s a different thing to, in conversation, put somebody else’s degree down because it wasn’t an Ivy League degree or something like that. Just ends up being, it reflects poorly on you.

Ray Zinn: Yeah. I think that’s the key is that if you’re hanging your shingle up just to impress others, then you’re doing it for the wrong reason. You were trying to impress yourself, not impressing others. Compare yourself to yourself, here I am, here’s where I want to be, and here’s where I’m going, as opposed to, “Oh, so-and-so is accomplishing this, so-and-so is accomplishing that. Look at this leader or that leader and what they managed to have accomplished” whether you’re the richest man in the world like Elon Musk or whether you’re the President of the United States like Donald Trump, don’t do that comparison. Look at where you are and where you’re going. Maybe you’re just a hairdresser or maybe you work as a clerk in a grocery store. If that’s where you want to be, if that’s where you’re headed, then great, but don’t compare yourself to Donald Trump or to Elon Musk. Try to be who you want to be, not be who you thought somebody else is.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. Toughthingsfirst.com, that’s where the listeners need to go if they want to continue the conversation. Comments and questions are welcome there. Follow Ray on X and Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First, and as you’ve been told, the Zen of Zinn series is also available, and that’s one, two and three on sale now, The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn: 10 Skills, Attributes and fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader.

Thank you, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

You may have heard that a failure to plan is nothing more than a plan to fail. Ray Zinn puts his hard earned life experience out there and proves what you get if you fail to plan is a pipe-dream and surefire disappointment.

Rob Artigo: Good to be back. You have a series of books. You have Zen of Zinn one, two and three, and I picked up Zen of Zinn one and went to page 110, and I found this particular writing, which I thought was interesting. It was thought-provoking and I thought made a worthy podcast. You wrote, “The difference between a goal and a plan is that a goal is what we want to accomplish, and a plan is the way we accomplish the goal. Many of us have goals, but no plan to accomplish their goals. A goal without a plan is just wishful thinking.” And also you’ve said, and you wrote in your book, The Essential Leader, “That a goal without a plan is not a plan.”

Ray Zinn: They call it a pipe dream, Rob.

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A lifetime of leadership experience wrapped in an entertaining and informative read. Join Tough Things First for the official launch of The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn, 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals that Make Up The Essential Leader. (Watch the Video Podcast)

Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, former Bay Area Radio Personality and your host for this edition of The Tough Things First podcast. Here with me once again is Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Today we understand the Essential Leader. This is a special podcast in more ways than one, it’s a video podcast. The link is at toughthingsfirst.com. Today is the day we announce Ray Zinn’s newest book, fresh Off the presses, The Essential Leader, 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals that Make Up The Essential Leader. Congratulations, Ray. This book really turned out great.

Ray Zinn: I think it’s one of the most important books that I’ve ever written.

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